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Two25 17 Story High Rise Proposed for SE Columbus Commons

Home Forums General Columbus Discussion Development Two25 17 Story High Rise Proposed for SE Columbus Commons

This topic contains 303 replies, has 60 voices, and was last updated by  Mike88 3 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 121 through 135 (of 304 total)
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  • #1112831

    heresthecasey
    Participant

    Brett Kaufman posted this on Facebook “It’s not just the costs, it’s the market rents relative to the costs that make the economics too challenging. Rents, job growth are both much stronger currently in other markets like Nashville. We’re getting closer but not there yet. Happy to explain more anytime.”

    I’m guessing that means that renting out 250 S High isn’t going as well as they hoped. It is pretty expensive with a 1 bedroom starting at $1,395. If your not filling up the building you just built I can see why they would scale back plans on the residential for their next one.

    Given the large size of the units, the rents at 250 High are still pretty low on a cost per square foot basis – coming in at around $1.60-1.90/SF.

    A rule of thumb I have heard before is that for new construction mid and high rises, you generally need to be getting at least $2/SF and above in order to make the economics really work.

    While the rents at new projects here in Columbus have been set high relative to what we’re used to, they’re still very low compared to the rest of the country. It’s a drawback to being one of the most affordable places to live (an otherwise great characteristic IMO).

    Other cities in our position like Indianapolis have more directly subsidized taller projects (to the tune of ~25 million dollars in the case of 360 Market Square) in order to get them off the ground. That’s something the city here has been less willing to do (I’d argue a better policy in the long run), but it means for now that our proposals are more constrained by economics.

    #1112834
    Stephen43215
    Stephen43215
    Participant

    Miranova was built 16 years ago at 28 stories high making it the tallest residential building in the state of Ohio. Going higher than what we have been seeing proposed is definitely doable we just need developers to step up to the plate. At the time Miranova was built the downtown population was not booming like it is now so I don’t see why developers are scared to go higher than 12 floors.

    #1112835

    drtom1234
    Participant

    Miranova is actually 27 stories, but that’s a small point. However, keep in mind it took close to 10 years following its construction for the last condos there to be sold. I doubt that’s something that any developer wants to deal with.

    #1112837

    jbcmh81
    Participant

    Miranova is actually 27 stories, but that’s a small point. However, keep in mind it took close to 10 years following its construction for the last condos there to be sold. I doubt that’s something that any developer wants to deal with.

    There were also 2 recessions in the decade that followed its construction and the condo market completely crashed, so I’m not sure that is a fair example. In any case, even half that size would still be larger than all but 1 project that has been built since then.

    #1112845
    King Gambrinus
    King Gambrinus
    Participant

    Other cities in our position like Indianapolis have more directly subsidized taller projects (to the tune of ~25 million dollars in the case of 360 Market Square) in order to get them off the ground. That’s something the city here has been less willing to do (I’d argue a better policy in the long run), but it means for now that our proposals are more constrained by economics.

    While the city isnt giving cash like in Indy, I wouldn’t say this project is without subsidies. The parking will be generously provided by the existing city garage and “Daimler and Kaufman will purchase the land for Two25 from Capitol South for an undisclosed price” which I’m sure will be a small fraction of what it’s actually worth.

    Not that I’m against either of those actions it’s still just disappointing that even with those benefits the economics of a high rise won’t work. Because if they won’t work here then that doesn’t give me much hope for anywhere else downtown.

    #1112893

    jbcmh81
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>heresthecasey wrote:</div>
    Other cities in our position like Indianapolis have more directly subsidized taller projects (to the tune of ~25 million dollars in the case of 360 Market Square) in order to get them off the ground. That’s something the city here has been less willing to do (I’d argue a better policy in the long run), but it means for now that our proposals are more constrained by economics.

    While the city isnt giving cash like in Indy, I wouldn’t say this project is without subsidies. The parking will be generously provided by the existing city garage and “Daimler and Kaufman will purchase the land for Two25 from Capitol South for an undisclosed price” which I’m sure will be a small fraction of what it’s actually worth.

    Not that I’m against either of those actions it’s still just disappointing that even with those benefits the economics of a high rise won’t work. Because if they won’t work here then that doesn’t give me much hope for anywhere else downtown.

    I’m also curious about the Nashville comment. Specifically, what makes the economics work better there? Columbus is growing faster in terms the city. This is true even though Nashville is incorporated with its overall county in the same way that Indianapolis or Louisville are. Nashville’s metro has faster growth, but it also incorporates 4 more counties than Columbus, but it still is over 200K smaller than Columbus’. And we’re still talking about the city core, anyway. Columbus has the larger GDP, and both have similar per-capita incomes and growth rates. Columbus has lower unemployment and similar job growth.

    So what are the economic factors that make Nashville the stronger development market?

    #1112906

    Roger846
    Participant

    So what are the economic factors that make Nashville the stronger development market?
    [/quote]

    I think it’s exactly what you’ve said before that many of our developers and city leaders have grown up with and bought into that idea that Columbus is a small collget town, we’re not as hot as Austin, Nashville, etc. and it won’t work here mindset. I see many middle aged suburbanites with that attitude, and it holds us back because all these people are not only our developers and city leaders but our infomral ambassadors when they go on trips. It’s gotten better over the years, and hopefully, it will continue to get better, but for now, it seems like we’re stuck at the 6- to 12-story box, poor mass transit limit.

    #1112931

    futureman
    Participant

    I agree, the fact they can’t go taller than 12 stories despite already having an existing 4,000+ space parking garage is concerning. If Columbus can’t build tall here, I don’t know where else the economics could work.

    It looks like six story buildings will be the norm unless the building is subsidized by the city or we get proper mass transit system.

    #1112991

    Mike88
    Participant

    Massively disappointing to see this scaled back.
    That corner should be a showcase not a compromise. I personally thought 17 was too small; 12 definitely is…

    #1112993

    Pablo
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>King Gambrinus wrote:</div>
    Brett Kaufman posted this on Facebook “It’s not just the costs, it’s the market rents relative to the costs that make the economics too challenging. Rents, job growth are both much stronger currently in other markets like Nashville. We’re getting closer but not there yet. Happy to explain more anytime.”

    I’m guessing that means that renting out 250 S High isn’t going as well as they hoped. It is pretty expensive with a 1 bedroom starting at $1,395. If your not filling up the building you just built I can see why they would scale back plans on the residential for their next one.

    Given the large size of the units, the rents at 250 High are still pretty low on a cost per square foot basis – coming in at around $1.60-1.90/SF.

    A rule of thumb I have heard before is that for new construction mid and high rises, you generally need to be getting at least $2/SF and above in order to make the economics really work.

    While the rents at new projects here in Columbus have been set high relative to what we’re used to, they’re still very low compared to the rest of the country. It’s a drawback to being one of the most affordable places to live (an otherwise great characteristic IMO).

    Other cities in our position like Indianapolis have more directly subsidized taller projects (to the tune of ~25 million dollars in the case of 360 Market Square) in order to get them off the ground. That’s something the city here has been less willing to do (I’d argue a better policy in the long run), but it means for now that our proposals are more constrained by economics.

    I was talking with a colleague in Nashville and he said rents are about $2.30/SF, hence projects like this:
    http://skyrisecities.com/news/2016/01/construction-begins-45-storey-505-project

    #1113009

    indyout
    Participant

    Nashville’s growth rate has a lot to do with tourism, there are currently 68 proposed hotels in the metro area according to bizfirst but the main reason for growth NO State income TAX.

    #1113013

    jbcmh81
    Participant

    Nashville’s growth rate has a lot to do with tourism, there are currently 68 proposed hotels in the metro area according to bizfirst but the main reason for growth NO State income TAX.

    But Nashville, the city, is growing more slowly than Columbus, at least since 2010. Metro growth is only slightly faster. But we are talking about the Downtown, in the city. Economic factors are either in Columbus’ favor or about even with Nashville as well. The only thing that seems to be in Nashville’s favor is that they have higher rents that might support a larger project, and probably more builders that can finance them. There’s not a single developer I can think of in Columbus that could handle a 45 story project like that above. Perhaps not even 30 stories. This is going to limit how high the urban population can really get because every single project that stays 5-6 stories in and around Downtown takes up one more lot that can’t have something bigger if/when this issue is resolved.

    #1113014

    Shako
    Participant

    Have you considered that perhaps there just isn’t demand for that type of development in our local market? I enjoy seeing new buildings, but at a certain point you need to make the decision to enjoy your community for what it is or move somewhere else if having taller buildings is important to you personally. Columbus is a great place to live with a lot going for it. But it’s certainly not for everyone.

    #1113015

    wpcc88
    Participant

    List of 20+ Story Buildings in Comparable “Regional” Metro’s:

    Pittsburgh – 34

    Cleveland – 31

    Kansas City – 25

    Columbus – 22

    Cincinnati – 19 (21 if you count NKY)

    Nashville – 19 w/ 7 proposed

    Indy – 19

    My point being these cities have a lot of 10+ stories for infill. I think people on this board underestimate just how tall 10 stories actually is and what that does for the urban core. There are plenty of flat lots and non-historical structures that can be demolished to make way for something bigger in the future(I’m looking at you the 3 downtown tire centers). As those flat lots slowly start disappearing developers will have no choice but to go upward with their proposals; until then it is all about sustainability and funding. No bank or investor is going to throw money at a 15-20+ story tower that is going to sit vacant for years when they can get as close to an immediate return on their investment as possible with a 10-15 story occupied building(aka don’t put all of your eggs in one basket).

    #1113017

    WJT
    Participant

    List of 20+ Story Buildings in Comparable “Regional” Metro’s:

    Pittsburgh – 34

    Cleveland – 31

    Kansas City – 25

    Columbus – 22

    Cincinnati – 19 (21 if you count NKY)

    Nashville – 19 w/ 7 proposed

    Indy – 19

    My point being these cities have a lot of 10+ stories for infill. I think people on this board underestimate just how tall 10 stories actually is and what that does for the urban core. There are plenty of flat lots and non-historical structures that can be demolished to make way for something bigger in the future(I’m looking at you the 3 downtown tire centers). As those flat lots slowly start disappearing developers will have no choice but to go upward with their proposals; until then it is all about sustainability and funding. No bank or investor is going to throw money at a 15-20+ story tower that is going to sit vacant for years when they can get as close to an immediate return on their investment as possible with a 10-15 story occupied building(aka don’t put all of your eggs in one basket).

    Columbus has 27 buildings completed of at least 20 floors per Emporis. With ten of those over 400 feet.

    I agree that buildings like the Riversouth LC buildings, at 8 and 10 floors, are good buildings and buildings like this will add density quickly. Also some of these 5-10 floor buildings going up are great for their locations (The Neilston, the new building going up on Oak south of Broad) adding density in areas that are not on the ‘spine’ of the city and all.

    If the infill keeps up, and fills up, hopefully sometime in the future(either sooner or later)the demand will be there and maybe we can get something higher by not just filling in parking lots, but replacing really crappy buildings that are in really good locations. I am beginning to think that the ‘optimal’ location does not have to just be immediately adjacent to High, but anywhere from the river to across fourth street, and their is still plenty of opportunity there.

    As much as I love tall buildings, it really should be about density and the street environment-the best way to get taller buildings is to improve both of these things, density and the street level environment, downtown. With improved transportation options, naturally. :)

    It does not help though, when Louisville is getting a 37 story convention center hotel with over 600 rooms and 225 apartments….with the city and state providing nearly half of the 289 million dollar costs.
    http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=220881

    *jealous*

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