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Trayvon Martin and "Stand Your Ground"

Home Forums General Columbus Discussion Everyday Chit Chat Trayvon Martin and "Stand Your Ground"

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 1,080 total)
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  • #487826

    Twixlen
    Participant

    myliftkk said:
    Conceptually, I don’t have an issue. But, and it’s a big but, the law has been so poorly written that the “claim” of self-defense is coming down to one living person’s word against a dead body (and this has been how it has played out multiple times). That is not sufficient, and it’s proving over and over again in FL, where gangs are claiming self-defense in open air shootouts and getting off.

    To me, the key is where the burden of proof lies. FL law, as it seems the courts, prosecutors, and police are interpreting it, puts the burden of proof, in practice, on the system to prove the killing wasn’t in self-defense. I think it should be the other way around. It wouldn’t stop things like this from happening, not to say any law would, but it would better ensure they don’t go grossly unpunished.

    I think it was a piece on All Things Considered that talked about a case where two rival gangs had a shoot out in the street; an innocent kid was killed in the crossfire, and the case wasn’t prosecutable, due to the Stand My Ground law. That’s nuts.

    #487827

    myliftkk
    Participant

    Twixlen said:
    I think it was a piece on All Things Considered that talked about a case where two rival gangs had a shoot out in the street; an innocent kid was killed in the crossfire, and the case wasn’t prosecutable, due to the Stand My Ground law. That’s nuts.

    That was a FL case yes, in north FL, IIRC.

    #487828
    rus
    rus
    Participant

    myliftkk said:
    Conceptually, I don’t have an issue. But, and it’s a big but, the law has been so poorly written that the “claim” of self-defense is coming down to one living person’s word against a dead body (and this has been how it has played out multiple times). That is not sufficient, and it’s proving over and over again in FL, where gangs are claiming self-defense in open air shootouts and getting off.

    To me, the key is where the burden of proof lies. FL law, as it seems the courts, prosecutors, and police are interpreting it, puts the burden of proof, in practice, on the system to prove the killing wasn’t in self-defense. I think it should be the other way around. It wouldn’t stop things like this from happening, not to say any law would, but it would better ensure they don’t go grossly unpunished.

    I see what you’re saying, but putting the burden the other way has it’s own problems.

    http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2012/02/ohio_supreme_court_sends_castl.html

    http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/09/appeals_court_overturns_murder_1.html

    #487829
    Snarf
    Snarf
    Participant

    Twixlen said:
    cable_crop

    From this article in The Atlantic on media bias[/url].

    Between the shooting itself and the Justice Department’s announcement, according to ThinkProgress, CNN ran 41 segments on the Trayvon Martin case. MSNBC ran 13. Fox News covered it only once.

    In itself, that’s a matter of news judgment that could probably be defended. But I want to suggest that the disparity here may have something to do with whether one thinks institutional racism remains a serious problem in the United States. Conservatives often seem to think it isn’t, and that if anything, the real problem is how often spurious charges of white racism are deployed by their political opponents, while liberals more often tend toward the opposite view. Maybe both groups are drawing justified inferences from the data they’re seeing.

    that graphic is insane.

    #487830

    myliftkk
    Participant

    rus said:
    I see what you’re saying, but putting the burden the other way has it’s own problems.

    http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2012/02/ohio_supreme_court_sends_castl.html

    http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/09/appeals_court_overturns_murder_1.html

    It was adjudicated in the court of law, as it should have been. Why he was convicted on the first round could have been any number of reasons, including poor jury selection, etc. Should he have not had to prove his killing was justified?

    In this case, the adjudication essentially happened when the cops let Zimmerman walk off in the first place. No one’s asked Zimmerman to prove anything, they just took him at his word.

    #487831

    myliftkk
    Participant

    Here’s very likely the noose that should hang Zimmerman.[/url]

    #487832
    Snarf
    Snarf
    Participant

    What do they think he said? Sounds like “fucking punks.”*

    *Not at all defending this pos.

    #487833

    Twixlen
    Participant

    Snarf said:
    What do they think he said? Sounds like “fucking punks.”*

    *Not at all defending this pos.

    It’s believed he said “fucking coons” — and I’m pretty sure that’s the Feds take on it as well.

    #487834

    myliftkk
    Participant

    Snarf said:
    What do they think he said? Sounds like “fucking punks.”*

    *Not at all defending this pos.

    Some think he said coons (now, that’s not really unbelievable considered that word is much more commonly deployed in the south than the other pejorative).

    Putting aside the exact word, it does convey how amped up he is to create the confrontation from the start.

    ETA: Apparently other members in the community have said how their neighborhood watch consisted of being on the lookout for black males.

    #487835
    derm
    derm
    Participant

    Was in South Florida last week, so have been following the story closely. One horrible thing. This happened a month ago. Without the family and a couple reporters working this, it would have faded long ago.
    Two horrible thing – the new data about this case that has come out in just the last couple of days is completely different than the data that was initially presented by the police department at the time. Amazingly different. Like they pertain to a whole different thing. Cellphone records not done, background checks not done, witness reports not taken or were taken and allegedly changed. What in the world is going on down there? It is amazing to me how the initial police report and stance on this case is different from what facts and witness reports are coming out now. Tons of people heard this and were close. The Miami herald had an article about how this happened right outside the window of two ladies, they heard it happen, gave statements, and that the police changed the testimony they gave.

    #487836
    rus
    rus
    Participant

    myliftkk said:
    It was adjudicated in the court of law, as it should have been. Why he was convicted on the first round could have been any number of reasons, including poor jury selection, etc. Should he have not had to prove his killing was justified?

    The Ohio appeals court said, in effect, that charges should not have been filed.

    #487837
    rus
    rus
    Participant

    derm said:
    Was in South Florida last week, so have been following the story closely. One horrible thing. This happened a month ago. Without the family and a couple reporters working this, it would have faded long ago.
    Two horrible thing – the new data about this case that has come out in just the last couple of days is completely different than the data that was initially presented by the police department at the time. Amazingly different. Like they pertain to a whole different thing. Cellphone records not done, background checks not done, witness reports not taken or were taken and allegedly changed. What in the world is going on down there? It is amazing to me how the initial police report and stance on this case is different from what facts and witness reports are coming out now. Tons of people heard this and were close. The Miami herald had an article about how this happened right outside the window of two ladies, they heard it happen, gave statements, and that the police changed the testimony they gave.

    Sounds like one hell of a failure of local law enforcement.

    #487838

    myliftkk
    Participant

    rus said:
    The Ohio appeals court said, in effect, that charges should not have been filed.

    I don’t have an issue with that. I’m not claiming the burden of proof on one or the other is perfect. I’m saying the outcomes being nominally aligned with what the community feels is justice works better when the burden is on the those wielding deadly force, even in defense. It doesn’t prevent overzealous prosecutors from existing, but it does hopefully prevent wanton perversion of the statute to serve those whose interests it was never designed for.

    #487839
    rus
    rus
    Participant

    myliftkk said:
    I don’t have an issue with that. I’m not claiming the burden of proof on one or the other is perfect. I’m saying the outcomes being nominally aligned with what the community feels is justice works better when the burden is on the those wielding deadly force, even in defense. It doesn’t prevent overzealous prosecutors from existing, but it does hopefully prevent wanton perversion of the statute to serve those whose interests it was never designed for.

    Seems like you could achieve the same goal if local law enforcement does an actual investigation.

    #487840

    myliftkk
    Participant

    rus said:
    Seems like you could achieve the same goal if local law enforcement does an actual investigation.

    Appears that that sounds easier than it is.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 1,080 total)

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