Our City Online

Messageboard - General Columbus Discussion

NOTE: You are viewing an archived version of the Columbus Underground forums/messageboard. As of 05/22/16 they have been closed to new comments and replies, but will remain accessible for archived searches and reference. For more information CLICK HERE

OSU Fires Band Director Jon Waters

Home Forums General Columbus Discussion OSU Fires Band Director Jon Waters

Viewing 15 posts - 76 through 90 (of 179 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1035906

    Scioto Tower
    Participant
    #1036023

    James Ragland
    Participant

    The University actively enforces it’s policy against hazing on a daily, almost hourly basis. Could it be proven that enforcement was lax regarding the band? Absolutely. I’ll take my chances on Ohio State using its legal team to cover its hind parts as opposed to siding with those who are not knowledgeable enough about the law to keep from putting a nail in there own coffin in order to try and away public opinion. Again, it’s not enough to essentially say, “sure I participated in sanctioned events that amount to hazing, but I was cool with it.” Ask any kid on frat row what would happen to them for the same activities. Ask any faculty member what their consequence would be for allowing it, let alone participating in it. It’s clear cut, in my opinion. His firing is also consistent with University policy. We all may not like it, but it does show a change in culture, and leadership in the face of certain adversity.

    #1036030

    sirlancelot
    Participant

    What I find amazing is how Ohio State went about removing a popular marching band director and the justifications used. One assumes they have competent legal counsel but it looks like the situation was badly handled. Obviously, we are not privy to all the facts but the methods here do not jive when compared with similar situations. What matters is how things appear, and it appears that Mr. Waters was treated unjustly. If the issues had been handled correctly, there would be no need for a second investigation.

    Second, I have heard a rumor that the real reason why Waters was fired is that he is a conservative Christian and some people are uncomfortable. I am not a conservative Christian but if personal lifestyles or beliefs play are an issue here, Ohio State University will lose much more than a marching band director.

    #1036040

    nohio
    Participant

    I would be amazed if that rumor regarding his religion were true because Ohio State has long been a bastion oconservative Christians and conservative ideology. Whether it is the Wexner’s (a Jewish man but with deep pockets for the RNNC) or the Wolfe’s who control so much of Ohio State and its inner-workings to Elwood Gee (Mormon) – as well as the vast majority of Board of Trustee members who are very Republican and very conservative. Jim Tressel brought a culture of Christianity to everything in the athletic department where he had what amounted to a forced prayer session at the end of every game in the middle of the field and ALL of the cheerleaders as well as team members got together and prayed in the middle of the field after a game with nary a single one opting out- one prominent team member did opt out years ago under JT -and made a comment that was heard by more than one person on the sideline saying- I am a Roman Catholic and coach’s brand of fundamentalism doesn’t care for us Mary-loving Catholics. The announced rally before the Florida National Championship game was a complete sham that turned out to be a witness for Christ affair by football players -with not much pep but the place was packed to the rafters.
    Aaron Craft secondary claim to fame-was holding regular, open prayer sessions….
    point being – OSU promotes and endorses Conservative Christianity -they always have. I have been at OSU for 43 years as a multiple degree alum and employee and I don’t see this as a factor with the band director.

    #1036118

    gramarye
    Participant

    I also think that we’d have heard about this angle before now if there were any real substance to it. Even if it were ultimately false, we’d still have heard about it before now if it were even remotely credible because that would drive up ratings for certain news media outlets whose audiences treat those kind of stories as red meat.

    OSU is still a heavily liberal world, like most college campuses, so I won’t go as far as nohio, but it’s true that it’s generally a more friendly place for conservatives and libertarians than most college campuses. In 14 quarters there, I only ever ended up taking one class taught by the stereotypical closed-minded leftist ideologue who couldn’t help but bring political biases into the classroom. I’m always open to contrary evidence, but I strongly doubt that a deeper look at the evidence here is going to find anything of substance on the purge-the-conservatives angle.

    #1037241

    James Ragland
    Participant

    http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2014/08/27/Ohio_State_Band_Director_Waters_requests_hearing.html

    So this is what it boils down to for me. Mr. Waters wants a “Court look-alike” as opposed to an actual court case. Why not just sue if he has a case? This looks silly. So everything said in the kangaroo court would be permissible should he bring an actual court case. Quit supporting this farce. He’s caught. He’s fired. It’s justified. People don’t like it; however they would hate to see some kid sue the University based off of the findings in the report. Sue or move on.

    #1037271
    Coremodels
    Coremodels
    Participant

    So basically you’re not following the story at all and just continuing based on your previously formed opinions. The guy was fired based on a report which assigns him ownership of things that took place before he even had the job. That report is being disputed by the tiny handful of students that were actually questioned, claiming their statements are misrepresented. He had a glowing review weeks before specifically commending him for attempting to change the culture that was there before he arrived. Even the former Title IX coordinator for the school says OSU was wrong.

    But yeah, its a “farce”.

    #1037282
    dalias
    dalias
    Participant

    So basically you’re not following the story at all and just continuing based on your previously formed opinions…Even the former Title IX coordinator for the school says OSU was wrong.

    But yeah, its a “farce”.

    So basically you’re not reading the story at all and just continuing based on your previously formed opinions. The former coordinator did not say OSU was wrong on the findings or the firing. She did say that it could have been handled better, which at this point I don’t think too many people would argue against. But in the same article she is quoted as saying “the investigation’s conclusion that the band contained a sexualized culture was accurate based on what she had experienced and heard.”

    But that is apparently not what you want to read if you read it at all before adding it to your pile of evidence.

    #1037283

    James Ragland
    Participant

    I think what you are referring to is all subjective. His task was to change the things that continued to happen, that he indeed knew about and probably participated in before he got the job. Who better to change the culture than someone who actually participated in maintaining it? The problem is, Mr. Waters probably loved the band culture and saw no real problem with what was going on. I am following the press releases of those who continue to try and speak out on Waters behalf. It’s public relations, and in all honesty, those folks are indeed preaching to the choir. Stunts like this one today (Kangaroo Court request) only serve to keep the fire lit for those who would rather strong arm the University into giving Jon Waters his job back. They in no way reflect positively on Waters innocence, and to me they bolster the University’s argument about his guilt.

    Coremodels, do you really think there was absolutely no hazing going on in that band? Are you confident that if challenged, the “pranks” conducted in the band (and I am talking about just those events that current and former band members are admitting took place under Waters’ watch) could not be construed to be sexual assault? It seems clear to me that all you would need is one disgruntled former member to say, “I was made to perform a flying 69 where my _____ was grabbed.” and that would justify firing Waters. If he has a court case, what is he waiting for? It seems to me that resolution would come faster in the form of a settlement if Ohio State was in the wrong and Waters had some legal ground to stand on. He wants a “former judge” to monitor the proceedings in which he will call witnesses? Why not get a “real judge?” He’s entitled to that.

    The issues surrounding the review are also fodder for those in the public who, “Stand with Jon.” If a sexual assault occurs on your watch, and you allow it, and quite possibly participate in it, your former reviews do not matter any longer. Debating whether “flying 69’s” and “Midnight Marches in your underwear (voluntary or not)” constitute sexual assault may be debatable to you and other supporters of Mr. Waters, but they clearly fly in the face of the University Student Code of Conduct, and the laws of this state. I’m sorry that is fact, but it is and by these continued antics, I think Jon Waters is the first to realize that. I hate to see him go. His performances were awe-inspiring. I enjoyed every single one that I saw live, and on video. He could not remain the band director after what they “found.”

    #1037284
    Coremodels
    Coremodels
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Coremodels wrote:</div>
    So basically you’re not following the story at all and just continuing based on your previously formed opinions…Even the former Title IX coordinator for the school says OSU was wrong.

    But yeah, its a “farce”.

    But in the same article she is quoted as saying “the investigation’s conclusion that the band contained a sexualized culture was accurate based on what she had experienced and heard.”

    No one is suggesting that culture didn’t exist, including Waters. The question is, was he responsible for it or was he going above and beyond to address it. What she said was that the entire probe could have been avoided, but that “Garrity-Rokous stood in the way of starting real progress on Title IX issues within the band, as he sometimes criticized her for being “too aggressive” with sexual harassment issues, including those within the marching band”.

    So what you have is a Title IX Coordinator saying the probe was unnecessary and that her department head had no real interest in addressing the issues within the band.

    As to the findings being wrong, that’s already been proven every which way. The findings outline events that didn’t even occur under Waters, they’re disputed by the people who gave the supporting statements, and they’ve been heavily criticized on methodology to begin with.

    #1037285

    James Ragland
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>dalias wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Coremodels wrote:</div><br>
    So basically you’re not following the story at all and just continuing based on your previously formed opinions…Even the former Title IX coordinator for the school says OSU was wrong.

    But yeah, its a “farce”.

    But in the same article she is quoted as saying “the investigation’s conclusion that the band contained a sexualized culture was accurate based on what she had experienced and heard.”

    No one is suggesting that culture didn’t exist, including Waters. The question is, was he responsible for it or was he going above and beyond to address it. What she said was that the entire probe could have been avoided, but that “Garrity-Rokous stood in the way of starting real progress on Title IX issues within the band, as he sometimes criticized her for being “too aggressive” with sexual harassment issues, including those within the marching band”.

    So what you have is a Title IX Coordinator saying the probe was unnecessary and that her department head had no real interest in addressing the issues within the band.

    As to the findings being wrong, that’s already been proven every which way. The findings outline events that didn’t even occur under Waters, they’re disputed by the people who gave the supporting statements, and they’ve been heavily criticized on methodology to begin with.

    Ok, so say you are correct in all of this, and I and the University are completely wrong. Wouldn’t you go to an actual COURT to fight your battle? Would you really request to convene a Kangaroo Court to try and get satisfaction? You can answer that personally if you want, Coremodels, but I am interested in knowing your opinion of why Waters just does not go ahead and go to a real court. He’s PAYING his lawyer to ask Ohio State if they would grant him a Kangaroo Court as opposed to PAYING the same guy to actually do what he is trained to do in a court that can give him a real resolution? Who does that? In my opinion the ONLY one who would do that is someone who has public opinion in his favor, but not the law. I am interested in your opinion.

    #1037298
    Coremodels
    Coremodels
    Participant

    I would go to an actual COURT to fight my battle if I wanted paid. I don’t believe he’s looking for a big lawsuit payday. I believe he’s looking for an apology, his integrity restored, and potentially his job back.

    #1037301

    pez
    Participant

    I would go to an actual COURT to fight my battle if I wanted paid. I don’t believe he’s looking for a big lawsuit payday. I believe he’s looking for an apology, his integrity restored, and potentially his job back.

    Agreed, going to court is a scorched earth approach. He wants his job and reputation back, he’s going about it the right way for now. In addition, there are likely contractual steps he needs to take prior to filing suit. I admit to not knowing what happened there, but from the way it was handled, I certainly contribute to a Kickstarter to support him suing the university just to get the facts out.
    While we don’t contribute enough to the alumni association or university to make a whole lot of difference to them, we’re done until the new leadership is gone.

    #1037305

    NEOBuckeye
    Participant

    This whole situation has got to be the most stunning misstep I have seen for a university president stepping right out of the gate. Drake was either completely clueless about or badly misread the culture of Buckeye Nation/OSU. They’ll let him know where it hurts, in the fundraising dept. He’s blown so much of his political capital before anyone has had the chance to get to know him that this single situation may have already swallowed his presidency whole. Not sure if he will even be able to climb out of this hole.

    #1037325
    dalias
    dalias
    Participant

    I don’t have a huge investment in this case, mainly entered because it annoys me when people debate laws they have never read and topics they don’t know much about. A lot of “I feel” and “I think” which means about nothing in terms of how a case like this is required to proceed. But I will part the topic with asking everyone to visualize the table flipped. A new president inherits an ongoing investigation where there are actual cases of sexual assault (this started well before he arrived and was not initiated under his watch). In addition there are multiple incidents and allegations of sexual harassment. And as a new, male president he does not strongly react. Take all the comments about not understanding the culture and threats to withhold money. Instead of having them be in defense of a band director, have them made under the heading “new president does not support survivors of sexual assault” and “new president safeguards cherished director of marching band because of high profile news coverage and Apple commercial royalties.” The publicity, the lawsuits, the liability would be much worse – ask the presidents of Amherst, Brown, Dartmouth, Occidental, UConn and others how well that worked for them – http://www.npr.org/2014/08/26/343352075/student-activists-keep-sexual-assault-issues-in-the-spotlight.

    For some on this board sexual assault and sexual harassment “sounds a lot like college kids acting like college kids.” In a national environment where 1 in 5 young women is sexually assaulted during her college career, the glory days of Animal House is not being tolerated by students, parents and lawmakers.

    Those in leadership positions will increasingly be held accountable in ridding campus of this environment. It will not always be pretty, but it is what will happen to make campus culture less threatening. If that process is worth withholding your hard earned alumni dollars for, that is your fight.

    Over the next few weeks the band will take the field. The will execute script Ohio, sousaphonists will dot the i, fans will cheer their half time shows and they will sound the chimes of Carmen, hopefully after victories. All of that can happen in an environment that does not expose students to threatening behavior, demean them as persons and within an environment wherein they will feel free to report adverse behavior without fear of repercussions.

Viewing 15 posts - 76 through 90 (of 179 total)

The forum ‘General Columbus Discussion’ is closed to new topics and replies.

Subscribe below: