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'Stand Your Ground' Legislation in Ohio

Home Forums General Columbus Discussion 'Stand Your Ground' Legislation in Ohio

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Viewing 15 posts - 91 through 105 (of 107 total)
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  • #489559

    jackoh
    Participant

    This whole notion of linking training and education to the issuance of a concealed carry permit is ridiculous. Concealed carry permits, issued by the government of the state to allow an individual to carry a gun and in the absence of a permit to allow the state to impose penalties on that individual, it can be argued, are in violation of the second amendment. The state permitting, by virtue of its requirements, and at the same time imposing restrictions on citizens who have not qualified for the requirements that it is imposing, means that only those who are considered to be in compliance with the requirements imposed by the state are granted the ability to exercise a right guaranteed by the Constitution. This should be, as they say, unconstitutional. The second amendment makes no mention of a two tiered right “to bear arms,” one belonging to one class of citizens and another, more restrictive, belonging to a second class who have not met government imposed standards for the exercise of that right. If “the right to bear arms”is enshrined in the Constitution, and that right extends to individuals as opposed to the collective (as Heller affirmed) then government imposed restrictions on the exercise of that right are, ipso facto, in violation of the Constitution. (There are cases in the Court pipeline as we speak that are testing this.) The interesting thing about the Heller decision that gun rights advocates either ignore or fail to comprehend is that the majority opinion in affirming a right to individual gun ownership also firmly acknowledged that the state has an interest and a constitution guarantee to be able to limit that right as it sees fit. Either the rights enshrined in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights inhere in the individual citizens of the society or they exist as privileges to be doled out by the state on the basis of who conforms to the requirements that the state sets. Concealed carry is, most definitely, an example of the latter.

    #489560
    lazyfish
    lazyfish
    Participant

    Snarf said:
    Can someone be a firearms enthusiast without being labeled a “gun nut” in your world?

    no.

    #489561

    revolutionist
    Participant

    Snarf said:
    Can someone be a firearms enthusiast without being labeled a “gun nut” in your world?

    Ethusiasm is pretty much a word to describe an irrational enjoyment of something, originally in relation to being inspired by a god. It is fair to say that “firearms enthusiast” = “gun nut”. I don’t think they are exclusively motivated by fear however, but also hate, paranoia and anxiety. That is after all why I have firearms, because I have a fear of irrational gun owners ;). I was raised by a few.

    It is the privatization of MAD (the cold war “doctrine” of mutually assured destruction, for the young folk on here).

    #489562

    Pablo
    Participant

    MRipley said:
    Is that 50 hours of driver training completed by a state certified instructor?

    No, but the driver’s ed portion is conducted by state certified instructors. I think that’s 24 hours total.

    #489563

    Schoolboy
    Participant

    Yeah, I would almost go with 3 4hr training sessions would not be enough for some people. Then again, most people are gonig to be fine with 4.

    The majority of people obtaining a concealed carry permit are long time gun owners who already have a very solid understanding of the weapons that they own. Many avid hunters and/or frequent their local shooting range (backyard for some).

    That being said, I know 2 women that have just completed their concealed training and obtained their permit. Both of them had minimal knowledge of handguns prior to this course. Both have continued training through a local shooting range, because they want to be 100% comfortable instead of the 75% that the course got them to.

    Are there “cowboys” obtaining this license? Yes. However, they are an extreme minority. You can’t punsh the 99% for the 1%. It’s just the way it is.

    Heck, I don’t have one just because I still don’t see a need. Do I need any training should I decide to get one? Yeah, I could use good instruction/test on the laws. Handling a gun, nope. Have been handling guns since I was 8.

    #489564

    MRipley
    Participant

    Pablo said:
    No, but the driver’s ed portion is conducted by state certified instructors. I think that’s 24 hours total.

    um…. that’s only for those under 18 correct? I believe there is no training or drivers ed required for those 18 and older, just pass the test.

    Still want to compare driver training with CCW training?

    #489565

    kit444
    Participant

    MRipley said:
    um…. that’s only for those under 18 correct? I believe there is no training or drivers ed required for those 18 and older, just pass the test.

    Still want to compare driver training with CCW training?

    What is your point? That four hours is reasonable?

    #489566

    Pablo
    Participant

    MRipley said:
    um…. that’s only for those under 18 correct? I believe there is no training or drivers ed required for those 18 and older, just pass the test.

    Still want to compare driver training with CCW training?

    I was agreeing with Gram that 12 hours of training isn’t unreasonable considering other training required for a large variety of state licenses. Hell, in order for me to maintain my professional state license for my profession I need to take 12 hours of course work every year.

    #489567

    News
    Participant

    “Stand Your Ground” Passes House Despite Debate And Protests
    November 21, 2013
    by Karen Kasler
    Statehouse Bureau Chief, Ohio Public Radio and Television

    A measure that’s called Ohio’s version of “stand your ground” has passed the Ohio House, after two hours of passionate arguments and a mid-debate protest.

    READ MORE: http://wosu.org/2012/news/2013/11/21/stand-your-ground-bill-clearspanel-heads-to-full-house-vote/

    #489568
    rus
    rus
    Participant

    Pablo said:
    I was agreeing with Gram that 12 hours of training isn’t unreasonable considering other training required for a large variety of state licenses. Hell, in order for me to maintain my professional state license for my profession I need to take 12 hours of course work every year.

    Seems like the comparison for a professional license is off; that’s more like ohio peace officer certification. As many here have pointed out, CCW permit holders aren’t police.

    For basic safe handling / storage / manual of arms ( generally covered, since that varies by platform ) and review of the applicable laws 4 hours seems plenty for an introduction.

    #489569

    gramarye
    Participant

    I wouldn’t compare it exactly to a professional license, either, but I don’t think the comparison is completely off, either.

    In fact, I’d be more comfortable with a 4-hour initial requirement if, like a professional license, it required additional annual hours to maintain. That might actually be better than 12 up front, come to think of it, considering that both laws and firearms can change.

    As for the Constitutional argument, the issue I have with the Second Amendment is that the historical context undergirding that amendment has changed more than probably any other amendment (or main body provision) in the Constitution other than letters of marque and reprisal. Standing armies, viewed with suspicion then, are a mainstay of our national defense today and are generally viewed with less suspicion than Congress at this point. State militias are no longer the principal military force of the Republic. More importantly, the social and economic geography of the country has changed dramatically. The Framers could rationally assume that the overwhelming majority of the public had basic familiarity with basic firearms the same way that lawmakers today can rationally assume that the overwheling majority of the public has basic familiarity with written English. (Granted, that doesn’t universally hold, especially in areas with substantial numbers of native Spanish speakers, but then again, the former assumption wouldn’t have universally held in Revolutionary times, either.) The Second Amendment was drafted by people who probably taught their own sons (and even their daughters) how to hold and fire a gun, and expected that their neighbors would do the same for their children. That simply is not the world we live in anymore. Also, as already pointed out, these proposed training hours (12, 4, or whatever) are imposed by the states, not the federal government, and the former have always had a little more leeway even in the years since the Supreme Court started recognizing the incorporation of the Bill of Rights against state governments via the Fourteenth Amendment.

    #489570

    Schoolboy
    Participant

    rus said:
    Seems like the comparison for a professional license is off; that’s more like ohio peace officer certification. As many here have pointed out, CCW permit holders aren’t police.

    For basic safe handling / storage / manual of arms ( generally covered, since that varies by platform ) and review of the applicable laws 4 hours seems plenty for an introduction.

    4 hours is plenty for people like ourselves, but I know people who have taken this course with the intention of not only obtaining the permit, but also to learn how to handle a firearm as well. Sort of like a 2 birds with one bullet. Not entirely sure if all would have still went on to seek additional training or not.

    My conclusion is that offering both a 4 and 12 hr class would be the way to go. If you fail your test after the 4 hr class, the remaining 8 is then mandatory.

    As for the constitutional aspect, I’m fine where we are.

    #489571

    sirlancelot
    Participant

    My brother-in-law and nephew are in law enforcement and oppose “stand your ground” legislation because too many people are not trained in firearms safety, or they are incompetent to know when to use a gun. The stand-your-ground legislation does not make one safer at home. In life threatening situations outside the home, one may do whatever is necessary to preserve life, subject to circumstances. This is why in shooting cases such as Trayvon Martin, the accused shooter must prove there were no other options except use of a firearm.

    #489572

    arobinbird
    Participant

    Thank you for re-routing the conversation back to the original issue, which is about SYG, not gun owners rights and CCW permits. SYG I believe applies whether you use a gun or not?

    #489573
    rus
    rus
    Participant

    Schoolboy said:
    My conclusion is that offering both a 4 and 12 hr class would be the way to go. If you fail your test after the 4 hr class, the remaining 8 is then mandatory.

    That’s not a bad idea, although beyond general principals a prescribed “one size fits all” course curriculum becomes problematic.

    Compare / contrast the manual of arms between a 1911, a M9 and a M&P 40. Now throw revolvers in the mix, being sure to include the difference between the S&W, Ruger and Colt cylinder releases and the different cylinder rotation as it affects speed reloading.

    I rather like the basic course as a beginning, with an emphasis on further practice with the individuals particular sidearm.

Viewing 15 posts - 91 through 105 (of 107 total)

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