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Viewing 15 posts - 106 through 120 (of 260 total)
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  • #513083
    Steve
    Steve
    Participant

    Emailed them… whether or not it helped, now I can sleep at night.

    Feel free to do the same.

    http://www.steiner.com/contact.aspx

    #513084

    InnerCore
    Participant

    jbcmh81 said:
    I really couldn’t disagree with you more, about IC or about development in the city. Certainly there are projects that are subpar in terms of urban design, and Easton Gateway is one of them, but I’m kind of tired of these blanket generalizations thrown around. There are plenty of projects that are not Easton Gateway. And let’s be honest here, for every city’s urban project that makes it into a development magazine, it is absolutely 100% guaranteed that there are 10 more that are shit. For every rail line built in Charlotte, how many miles of sprawl go up? Context always seems to be wildly misplaced in all this.

    You’re missing the broader point. Sure in other places like Charlotte they still build with bad design along with good design. It’s taken us 50 years for us to realize the negative effects of some of these building patterns. But in places like Charlotte you have a lot of good stuff going up in the suburbs. And let’s face it this is still where most of the growth in America is, Columbus included. Now compare that to Columbus where we don’t have one singe mixed use, urban, walkable project going up. Not one!. This isn’t a coincidence. It has to do with a combination of traffic not being so bad that people demand it, zoning not requiring it, no rail to encourage it and local developers not familiar with developing it.

    jbcmh81 said:
    If I’m to believe this idea you’re suggesting, why do you think it is that Columbus is growing at all? If the city is so far behind everywhere else, why are people moving there? Is it just the economy? If so, what a city full of miserable people, stuck in a generic, boring city just for a job. Maybe a bit hyperbolic, but come on. Cities don’t grow when they have far more wrong than right.

    I don’t want to derail this thread but factually this is just wrong. First let’s look at Franklin County where we have had negative net migration for years.

    So basically for the last decade people have been leaving Franklin County. Delaware County is essentially where all the migration growth is coming from.

    Now when you look at the Columbus MSA as a whole this is what you get for 2011.

    Total Population: 1,858,464
    Births: 25,789
    Deaths: 13,399
    International Migration:3,329
    Net Domestic Migration: 2,219

    So you’re basically:
    5,548 growth from migration
    12,390 growth from births minus death rate

    Now compare that to Charlotte:

    Total Population: 1,795,743
    Births: 24,619
    Deaths: 11,581
    International Migration: 4,581
    Net Domestic Migration: 13,778

    Now there you have:
    18,359 growth from migration
    13,038 growth from births minus death rate

    The natural growth between the two cities is about the same which is reasonable considering there about the same size. They have about the same number of births and the same number of deaths.

    But when you look at migration Charlotte is essentially growing at over 3 times the rate of Columbus. This isn’t an accident. Young people are choosing to move to places like that because they are developing communities that are appealing to the lifestyle that they want to lead at affordable prices. Which is why you get:

    Young people are actually leaving the big cities like NY and LA and instead going to the smaller cities that can still provide them the urban lifestyle they want, but at more affordable prices.

    The vast majority of our domestic migration comes from surround cities that are struggling economically. People are leaving the suburbs of Cleveland so they can live in Delaware. Which is probably why they’re looking at building new outlet malls and not downtown retail.

    Then when you start looking at our international migration you see that half of it comes from refugees that are assigned to live here. And there is nothing wrong with that, but shows how a city can find ways to grow it’s population without building environments that are attracting new residents.

    Now this is by no means an attack on Columbus. I may have struck the wrong tone before. But the numbers clearly show that Columbus is not growing because people are deciding to move here because the city is very appealing. They are moving to Delaware because it a good place to find work with a low cost of living.

    So to me I see this as an opportunity. Let’s not just get complacent because were not losing population. By the way 90% of the top 100 MSA are growing so that alone isn’t the best benchmark. But instead let’s capitalize off this growth and at the same time be smart about building an environment where we can still offer people a great cost of living along with the urban, walkable lifestyle that they want which also helps to build a longer more stable economy.

    Think of it this way. Everybody loves SN. But rents for are going insanely high. The prices of many of these urban areas are slowly moving just as high as the larger cities. So to a young professional where’s the value? Columbus is supposed to have a great cost of living but that doesn’t really mean much to a young professional when you’re telling them if they want that value they have to go and live out in the suburbs and drive everywhere.

    #513085
    Steve
    Steve
    Participant

    @InnerCore Is there any hope?

    #513086

    jbcmh81
    Participant

    jpizzow said:
    It is that same mindset and reinfocement of the suburban lifestyle by most developers and the city’s lax zoning that will continue the spreading out of suburbia. Why should there be 10 shitty projects to every one good development? Because developers can get away with it. Because our zoning codes are antiquated and permit it. Because some of our policy makers are uneducated in city planning principles meant for good quality of life and sustainability. To make matters worse, all of these problems have trained the average mindset into believing that much of what has been built over the past few decades is sufficient. I’m sorry but the human race deserves better. Many people do not demand better simply because they do not know any better.

    I agree, but this is definitely a national development problem, not something that Columbus nurtures all on its own, which seems to be implied far too often. It’s basically capitalism at work.

    #513087

    bucki12
    Member

    InnerCore said:

    Think of it this way. Everybody loves SN. But rents for are going insanely high. The prices of many of these urban areas are slowly moving just as high as the larger cities. So to a young professional where’s the value? Columbus is supposed to have a great cost of living but that doesn’t really mean much to a young professional when you’re telling them if they want that value they have to go and live out in the suburbs and drive everywhere.

    Interesting point…

    #513088

    jbcmh81
    Participant

    InnerCore said:

    You’re missing the broader point. Sure in other places like Charlotte they still build with bad design along with good design. It’s taken us 50 years for us to realize the negative effects of some of these building patterns. But in places like Charlotte you have a lot of good stuff going up in the suburbs. And let’s face it this is still where most of the growth in America is, Columbus included. Now compare that to Columbus where we don’t have one singe mixed use, urban, walkable project going up. Not one!. This isn’t a coincidence. It has to do with a combination of traffic not being so bad that people demand it, zoning not requiring it, no rail to encourage it and local developers not familiar with developing it.

    How exactly are you quantifying how many good projects there are versus bad in these cities? You have pointed out exactly two projects in Charlotte: rail and this town center development. This is hardly overwhelming evidence of a significant difference in building practices, especially when Columbus already has one of them.

    And again, how can you say there is not a serious mixed-use project going up anywhere in the city? I gave several examples and even you mentioned Dublin (forgot about it again when it was convenient to the point, I guess). I get you have a narrative that you want to present here: that Columbus is backwards and 99.99% of the rest of the nation is better. The reality on the ground really doesn’t agree with you, neither in Columbus nor in the cities you keep promoting.

    I’m not disagreeing that Columbus can’t do more, as it certainly can. But that’s a statement that could be made about literally everywhere. You insist I’m missing some kind of broad point you’re making, but you seem to be missing some pretty obvious flaws with your own argument.

    I don’t want to derail this thread but factually this is just wrong. First let’s look at Franklin County where we have had negative net migration for years.

    [img]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8103/8453618858_71b3f0bef5_c.jpg[/img]

    So basically for the last decade people have been leaving Franklin County. Delaware County is essentially where all the migration growth is coming from.

    That’s just not true. Early on in the 2000s, it was, but 6 of the last 7 years since 2005 have had positive in-migration to Franklin County. The losses have pretty much reversed, regardless of the movement between metro counties.

    Now when you look at the Columbus MSA as a whole this is what you get for 2011.

    Total Population: 1,858,464
    Births: 25,789
    Deaths: 13,399
    International Migration:3,329
    Net Domestic Migration: 2,219

    So you’re basically:
    5,548 growth from migration
    12,390 growth from births minus death rate

    Wait, didn’t you just say that people were leaving? Growth is not growth because it’s not enough growth?

    Now compare that to Charlotte:

    Total Population: 1,795,743
    Births: 24,619
    Deaths: 11,581
    International Migration: 4,581
    Net Domestic Migration: 13,778

    Charlotte isn’t growing because of tons of mixed-use projects or even rail. It grew because cost of living was lower, there were plenty of jobs and many of the Northern states were in worse shape. Those were the conditions for a good 30 years that produced significant boom growth in many Sun Belt cities, regardless of what they were doing developmentally. You also have had a growing population of retirees looking for warmer climates thrown on top.

    Columbus has grown largely for similar reasons, but it also had the stigma (and still does to some extent) of being in state long associated with decline. That seems to be changing quite a bit now, and may be one of the reasons Columbus is reversing some of its domestic migration losses, just as Cleveland and Cincinnati seem to be slowing down theirs.

    Either way, there is a hell of a lot more going on behind these trends than a Charlotte rail line or shopping center.

    But when you look at migration Charlotte is essentially growing at over 3 times the rate of Columbus. This isn’t an accident. Young people are choosing to move to places like that because they are developing communities that are appealing to the lifestyle that they want to lead at affordable prices. Which is why you get:

    See above. You are far oversimplifying why people have been moving south, and it’s not just a single age group that’s been doing so. That said, even Charlotte’s boom will hit a wall. Booms always do. I was just reading yesterday about how the mayor is concerned because there is little room left for annexation and little undeveloped land in the city to build. Like all boom towns, it will eventually have to change its practices or stagnate. There’s been a huge overreliance on suburban building in these cities. When that isn’t popular or feasible anymore, their high rates of growth are not going to last. They can work on infill density, of course, but that’s not going to support the growth rates that you are citing.

    [img]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8247/8453700486_8546836a56.jpg[/img]

    Young people are actually leaving the big cities like NY and LA and instead going to the smaller cities that can still provide them the urban lifestyle they want, but at more affordable prices.

    That’s a hell of a step down on the urban scale from NYC to Charlotte. I kind of doubt anyone who appreciates urbanity would be making that kind of move if it wasn’t about cost. But certainly no one goes to Charlotte or most other similar cities to find comparable urbanity to NYC. That’s just completely unrealistic, and if they do, they’re going to be greatly disappointed.

    The vast majority of our domestic migration comes from surround cities that are struggling economically. People are leaving the suburbs of Cleveland so they can live in Delaware. Which is probably why they’re looking at building new outlet malls and not downtown retail.

    You can blame the outlet mall on ODOT. How they fund such projects like the interchange there is to promote sprawl building. It has less to do with where people are moving, and it’s not like the urban core of the city is not growing.

    Then when you start looking at our international migration you see that half of it comes from refugees that are assigned to live here. And there is nothing wrong with that, but shows how a city can find ways to grow it’s population without building environments that are attracting new residents.

    Do you have links that break down international migration and why they’re coming to Columbus? Or did you just make that up? Further, wouldn’t a portion of every city’s international migration be made up of refugees? How about Charlotte’s? Or again, did you just make it up?

    Now this is by no means an attack on Columbus. I may have struck the wrong tone before. But the numbers clearly show that Columbus is not growing because people are deciding to move here because the city is very appealing. They are moving to Delaware because it a good place to find work with a low cost of living.

    That’s not what the numbers show, that’s your assumption on what the numbers show. Big difference.

    So to me I see this as an opportunity. Let’s not just get complacent because were not losing population. By the way 90% of the top 100 MSA are growing so that alone isn’t the best benchmark. But instead let’s capitalize off this growth and at the same time be smart about building an environment where we can still offer people a great cost of living along with the urban, walkable lifestyle that they want which also helps to build a longer more stable economy.

    Who is getting complacent? Stating that the city/county/metro are growing and that they have been growing for their entire histories is not being complacent, it’s stating a fact.

    The economy in the city is better than the national average, it was the only metro in Ohio and only one of 13 nationally that recovered all its recession jobs losses. It has a strong, stable economy across multiple industries. Stop trying to build problems that don’t exist.

    Think of it this way. Everybody loves SN. But rents for are going insanely high. The prices of many of these urban areas are slowly moving just as high as the larger cities. So to a young professional where’s the value? Columbus is supposed to have a great cost of living but that doesn’t really mean much to a young professional when you’re telling them if they want that value they have to go and live out in the suburbs and drive everywhere.

    So wait, are you arguing against basic capitalism here? Prices rise because of demand and people are willing to pay them. Places in the SN are not arbitrarily making prices up.

    #513089

    mrpoppinzs
    Member

    I read it as Columbus may be losing some of its edge as being a low cost place for a YP to find some cool digs. The rental rates have gone up a lot recently in the choicer walkable urban neighborhoods which seem to attract millennials.

    The breakdown of migration was informative.

    #513090

    labi
    Participant

    Manatee said:
    I’m not a big government believer, but unfortunately in the USA, the larger subset that makes decisions is the government. I think its time for zoning to step up in Cbus. We’ll have 10 years or so of Wexner et al. making money on these developments then we’ll be faced with some shitty land no one wants. Not to villainize Wexner and the like, I think they’re nice guys just trying to do their best. But we have to exert our voices.

    Agreed x 100. “Exerting our voices” meaning more than just participating in online forums.

    #513091
    Steve
    Steve
    Participant

    labi said:
    Agreed x 100. “Exerting our voices” meaning more than just participating in online forums.

    You’ll find it’s extremely unrealistic to attend meetings for every proposed development within Columbus unless you’re an old, retired lady (like InnerCore mentioned above).

    I couldn’t imagine how many days off I would need to request from work to have my voice heard at these committee meetings. The forum being used to hold these meetings is skewed toward people that can afford to take off time from work/are retired/whatever.

    I agree that we’re not going to accomplish much by sitting here and discussing it without any sort of real-world action, but attending all of the committee meetings just seems unreasonable.

    I am all ears to any other suggestions (other than sending letters and emails, which I am doing).

    #513092

    johnwirtz
    Participant

    InnerCore said:
    You’re missing the broader point. Sure in other places like Charlotte they still build with bad design along with good design. It’s taken us 50 years for us to realize the negative effects of some of these building patterns. But in places like Charlotte you have a lot of good stuff going up in the suburbs. And let’s face it this is still where most of the growth in America is, Columbus included. Now compare that to Columbus where we don’t have one singe mixed use, urban, walkable project going up. Not one!. This isn’t a coincidence. It has to do with a combination of traffic not being so bad that people demand it, zoning not requiring it, no rail to encourage it and local developers not familiar with developing it.

    I feel like some of Columbus’ suburbs have been trying to create walkable places in recent years. The newest is along Lane Avenue in UA, but Grandview has had a good amount of urban construction. Creekside in Gahanna was okay, right? Best of all, Dublin appears to be moving forward with its ambitious plans:
    http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2013/01/27/river-project-gathering-steam.html

    #513093

    InnerCore
    Participant

    jbcmh81 said:
    So wait, are you arguing against basic capitalism here? Prices rise because of demand and people are willing to pay them. Places in the SN are not arbitrarily making prices up.

    No I’m actually arguing for more capitalism. Our zoning code is based on use not form. So basically you have the governtment dictating what uses can go on a site. Let’s take SN for example. Along High st. the zoning is C-4 which allows for commercial uses and residential uses above. So you can’t build residential on the ground floor but you can put it above retail. Now as soon as you move off of High st. you can now only build residential.

    So a developer comes along and wants to build more mixed use buildings that are extremely popular on High st. because clearly that’s what the market wants. So he looks at a lot at Russel and Kerr st. or maybe 1st and Park st. But you can’t build mixed use there, only residential.

    And that comes from the old days where people didn’t what you to knock down a couple houses in there neighborhood and build a commercial building and increasing the traffic on their “private” public roads.

    Meanwhile other cities are going to form based zoning. They provide the requirements for the basic form of the building but you can put whatever use you want into it for the most part. So they’re letting capitalism pick more of the uses and dictating less of them from the government.

    #513094

    jbcmh81
    Participant

    InnerCore said:
    No I’m actually arguing for more capitalism. Our zoning code is based on use not form. So basically you have the governtment dictating what uses can go on a site. Let’s take SN for example. Along High st. the zoning is C-4 which allows for commercial uses and residential uses above. So you can’t build residential on the ground floor but you can put it above retail. Now as soon as you move off of High st. you can now only build residential.

    So a developer comes along and wants to build more mixed use buildings that are extremely popular on High st. because clearly that’s what the market wants. So he looks at a lot at Russel and Kerr st. or maybe 1st and Park st. But you can’t build mixed use there, only residential.

    And that comes from the old days where people didn’t what you to knock down a couple houses in there neighborhood and build a commercial building and increasing the traffic on their “private” public roads.

    Meanwhile other cities are going to form based zoning. They provide the requirements for the basic form of the building but you can put whatever use you want into it for the most part. So they’re letting capitalism pick more of the uses and dictating less of them from the government.

    I definitely support form-based code. However, you said nothing about it in what I was responding to. You were asking why YPers would pick the SN over similarly priced areas in other cities. Even with FBC, the market still would dictate rents, regardless of where residential units are within a building. If there is high demand, and if there are those willing to pay, rents will rise. If rents go beyond the means of a metro population, or if they are too high within an area that doesn’t justify the rates, they’ll come down. FBC is more about the ability of a developer to expand the types of development within a neighborhood, which is not the same thing as the market for rentals. The SN offers the walkability, the nightlife, the public transit, the retail. That’s why rents are higher, aside from the backdrop of rising rental rates everywhere because of demand for that type of housing.

    #513095

    InnerCore
    Participant

    stephentszuter said:
    You’ll find it’s extremely unrealistic to attend meetings for every proposed development within Columbus unless you’re an old, retired lady (like InnerCore mentioned above).

    I couldn’t imagine how many days off I would need to request from work to have my voice heard at these committee meetings. The forum being used to hold these meetings is skewed toward people that can afford to take off time from work/are retired/whatever.

    I agree that we’re not going to accomplish much by sitting here and discussing it without any sort of real-world action, but attending all of the committee meetings just seems unreasonable.

    I am all ears to any other suggestions (other than sending letters and emails, which I am doing).

    As with most things its all politics. Cincinnati used funds from their casino to fund part of their streetcar. Is Cincinnati doing vastly better economically? No. So why are they building and were not?

    I would think one place to start would be a referendum. I believe you only need 1,000 signatures to start the process. Then once it’s launched you would have to spread the word about the issues and get people out to vote on these issues.

    I would think the most glaring issues would be adapting the zoning code to encourage more mixed use development and bringing light rail. Of course a referendum is non binding but it sends a strong signal to the politicians about what the people want.

    Issues like light rail are/will be discussed ad nausem. Let’s get it out there and see where people stand today. Columbus Underground for mixed use. You can print up t-shirts that say “CU for MU”. On the back they can say “More Sprawl, FU”

    On a side not I had a friend that ran a field office for the Obama campaign. These guys worked their butts off and had he help of many volunteers. Were talking about a lot of millenials, the same people in surveys right here in Columbus say they want more urban, walkable environments with better transportation. We had a conversation a few weeks back where I thought it was pretty odd that these people poured their heart and soul into this campaign that really didn’t do much to their daily lives. But then when it comes time to fight for the things they want locally they take a sit back and wait approach.

    I’d also check up with the people over at TransitColumbus.org. I believe they had an annual meeting yesterday. I donated money so I’d like to know if they’re for real before I send them any more.

    #513096

    jbcmh81
    Participant

    mrpoppinzs said:
    I read it as Columbus may be losing some of its edge as being a low cost place for a YP to find some cool digs. The rental rates have gone up a lot recently in the choicer walkable urban neighborhoods which seem to attract millennials.

    The breakdown of migration was informative.

    There are some obvious assumptions that weren’t supported. First, if rates are rising in these types of neighborhoods in Columbus, why wouldn’t they also be rising in other cities given overall urban trends? Columbus would only be losing its edge if it was singularly rising. If it’s merely keeping up with similar neighborhoods elsewhere, then nothing’s really changing in that regard and Columbus’ neighborhoods would remain competitive.

    Second, was Columbus’ SN and other neighborhoods priced significantly lower or competitively before the rise in prices in similar neighborhoods in other cities? Is the rise in the rates faster than the average of similar neighborhoods in other cities? These are kind of important questions to answer before assuming Columbus is losing an edge or whether or not it even had one to begin with. Maybe IC has those answers?

    The immigration breakdown has been posted on the forum before. It didn’t support IC’s claim that Franklin County doesn’t have domestic growth. It has for 6 of the past 7 years, which is a reversal from years prior to 2005. Whatever the problem was, it’s either being mitigated or solved. Is it as strong as some other cities, no, but I’d say that’s a positive change.

    #513097

    Cbusflyer
    Member

    As a pilot, I have the privilege to travel all over our great country and see cities up close and personal on a weekly basis. I have seen great cities and terrible cities. Around 40% of the pilots for my company, commute to Columbus to start their trips. This has given me great insight into their city and what it has to offer. I have concluded that that three things seem to make the biggest difference when comparing their city, such as Charlotte to Columbus.

    First they have something they are known for. Look I love CBUS just as much as everyone else on here, but when there are almost 2 million people living here and the flight and departure board says Columbus OH that should tell you we need find our identity beyond OSU. I can see Portland OR, vs Portland ME, but seriously Columbus OH or is it Columbus IN, GA. Of course this is much easier said than done and I think our local food movement is really helping, but we need something more to define us.

    Two, Columbus is not the dominate city in it’s own state. Even as we gain ground on Cleveland and slowly Cincinnati, we are still considered the 3rd C. Charlotte has Raleigh and Greensboro to compete with, but Charlotte is the dominate city and will continue to be so into the future. If you are moving to NC for a large city, where do you look Charlotte. In Ohio, there are three totally different choices for urban living and three medium size cities behind that.

    Three, the weather. The weather is what it is, we can’t change it but I can see why people would want to live elsewhere. I am ok with the weather and I choose to live in Ohio because I love seasons, OHIO and Columbus but it takes commitment to want to live through the sunless days during January and February. Sure millions of people do it, but I think as the younger generation becomes even more fluid and mobile, they will continue to choose states with better climates than Ohio.

    Columbus OH just needs to become Columbus, I know that sounds strange but after introducing strangers to Columbus and showing them what it has to offer, it has made me realize that they had virtually little or no perception about our great city.

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