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HEIST: Who Stole the American Dream? 8/28

Home Forums Events Film Events HEIST: Who Stole the American Dream? 8/28

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Viewing 15 posts - 121 through 135 (of 154 total)
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  • #510170

    Twixlen
    Participant

    Polis said:
    I would say it is rather difficult to claim that each employee works less or more “hard” now than in the past when we produce more despite working less hours per employee.

    I can’t find any stats to back it up (I’m looking!) but I’m guessing we have fewer people employed because we have a much larger pool of retired people than at any other point in history.

    #510171

    gramarye
    Participant

    DavidF said:
    It has nothing to do with hard work. The vast majority of Americans work hard (in fact, the last stats I saw showed we work longer hours than any other developed country) and end up with little to show for it. Yet there is this constant theme that somehow our “work ethic” is eroding. Find me a single stat that shows we are working less hard than any previous generation. It doesn’t exist.

    It has nothing to do with hard work? Really?

    How about “hard work alone isn’t always enough?”

    But if you mean that exactly as you wrote it … wow.

    #510172

    Polis
    Participant

    I should also note that I do not want to live in a society that lets people starve in the street who have not committed grievous acts against society. Additionally, individual prosperity does not exist in a vacuum; it behooves any society to offer opportunities for success to those less fortunate as a genius can be born in the slums of NYC or in ritzy lofts of Seattle. The difference is the cultivation of such a person is not even in the U.S.

    Welfare is definitely a “net” in many ways, in that it both supports people and traps people. It should be re-designed to offer even MORE opportunities to contribute to society; even if that means have recipients fold silverware for prisons or work on an urban farm to grow their own food. Something, anything to have someone produce.

    I’m not saying that those who simply cannot produce should be forced to do so, there should be exceptions, but none of the general recipients of welfare should be allowed to doll about producing nothing.

    #510173

    gramarye
    Participant

    Twixlen said:
    I can’t find any stats to back it up (I’m looking!) but I’m guessing we have fewer people employed because we have a much larger pool of retired people than at any other point in history.

    Pablo said:
    Interesting how this thread about a film on corporate welfare has turned to attacking Reagan’s welfare queens.

    The issue, as JonMyers point out, is that the underlying premise of the film is that the American Dream has been “stolen” from these people, i.e., it buys into the victimization narrative. Discussing the movie without discussing the assumptions underlying it would largely miss the point.

    #510174

    Polis
    Participant

    Twixlen said:
    I can’t find any stats to back it up (I’m looking!) but I’m guessing we have fewer people employed because we have a much larger pool of retired people than at any other point in history.

    Well that is probably a contributing factor, but I wouldn’t say the main driver of the slip in employment. I’m not even sure this stat is including those of retirement age, it’s not really explained. The main bulk of the baby boomer generation will retire within the next decade or so, that’s when we’ll have a huge issue!

    I would guess that the recession is the main driver in this stat.

    #510175

    Cookie
    Member

    Has anyone “discussing the movie” actually seen the movie?

    #510176
    hugh59
    hugh59
    Participant

    Twixlen said:
    While these women knew that the system was there for them, do you really believe they were living the lives they wanted, for themselves or for their kids? Do you think if they had easy access to contraception – and the education to understand how it worked – that they wouldn’t have made different choices?

    This is a pretty damn insulting thing to say.

    Actually, it was the life they wanted.

    UPDATE

    It was usually pretty obvious which people were victims of circumstances outside of their control and which people had no idea that anything was wrong.

    #510177

    Twixlen
    Participant

    hugh59 said:
    Actually, it was the only life they knew.

    FTFY

    #510178

    DavidF
    Participant

    gramarye said:
    It has nothing to do with hard work? Really?

    How about “hard work alone isn’t always enough?”

    But if you mean that exactly as you wrote it … wow.

    Hard work alone isn’t always enough. But hard work itself is not always necessary either. I know plenty of people who live in nice houses, and have plenty of available resources who do little to no work. To pretend that hard work is the only factor differentiating social classes is pure fantasy. I keep hearing this underlying idea that only if they worked harder they wouldn’t be poor is absolute bunk. I know many people who work extremely hard. Some are doing well, some are doing badly and most are scraping by. The fetish of hard work is part of the problem. If only we work more hours, if only we take on more jobs, if only, if only.

    I’ve worked hard all my life and I’ll continue to do so likely until the day I die. I’ve never been naive enough to conflate my life path as the only, or even best one for everyone else.

    Rus’s slurs aside (and who can even take him seriously anymore?) I’m not a hater of wealth. I do hate the idea that somehow wealth in and of itself confers wisdom or moral superiority.

    And yes Gram, hard work and wealth have only a tenuous relationship with each other. If they didn’t you would see a much greater churn up and down the income brackets. Hard work is certainly a major factor in upward social mobility, but once a family has achieved great wealth, hard work has little to nothing to do with the financial status of subsequent generations. Hell, we have an entire class of celebrities that exist not because of any kind of achievement at all, but simply because they come from immense wealth.

    If it seems I’m denigrating the value of hard work, remember, I’m speaking of it in this context alone. For me, working hard is the only way I know to live and I find that it brings satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment to my life that nothing else does.

    So feel free to address my argument as I’ve written it, and stop trying to read things into it that aren’t there.

    #510179
    hugh59
    hugh59
    Participant

    Cookie said:
    Has anyone “discussing the movie” actually seen the movie?

    Does not look like it. I have not seen it. The best I could do was post some links to reviews. Hopefully linking to reviews will help people decide whether they want to go see it and give them something to think about before they see it.

    #510180
    rus
    rus
    Participant

    DavidF said:
    Rus’s slurs aside (and who can even take him seriously anymore?) I’m not a hater of wealth. I do hate the idea that somehow wealth in and of itself confers wisdom or moral superiority.

    Slur? At every mention of any entitlement reform you clamor against the evil rich that abuse the system, as if you view everything through a lens of class envy.

    If you’re insulted by that, write better.

    On this, though:

    DavidF said:

    If it seems I’m denigrating the value of hard work, remember, I’m speaking of it in this context alone. For me, working hard is the only way I know to live and I find that it brings satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment to my life that nothing else does.

    What do you say to those who don’t share that sentiment?

    #510181

    Cookie
    Member

    hugh59 said:
    Does not look like it. I have not seen it. The best I could do was post some links to reviews. Hopefully linking to reviews will help people decide whether they want to go see it and give them something to think about before they see it.

    The showing this thread advertised was yesterday.

    #510182

    DavidF
    Participant

    rus said:
    Slur? At every mention of any entitlement reform you clamor against the evil rich that abuse the system, as if you view everything through a lens of class envy.

    If you’re insulted by that, write better.

    On this, though:

    What do you say to those who don’t share that sentiment?

    Umm, the thing I already said. That I don’t presume that my outlook is the only valid point of view. Once again your reading disability has kicked in.

    Edit: And the reason Gram and Hugh get my respect even though I frequently disagree with them. They make rational arguments and tend to address the counter arguments of others rather than simply denigrating them or making up things they never said.

    #510183
    rus
    rus
    Participant

    DavidF said:
    Umm, the thing I already said. That I don’t presume that my outlook is the only valid point of view. Once again your reading disability has kicked in.

    Apparently you’re licking the windows of the short bus.

    Either that or generational poverty and state dependence is a “valid point of view”.

    #510184

    SusanB
    Participant

    The film in question has nothing to do with “entitlements” and everything to do with the deregulation of the financial industry and the resulting meltdown and the shift of wealth in this country in the last 20 years from the vanishing middle class to the uberwealthy. And offers solutions to the problems caused by said meltdown (as opposed to the government bailout of said banks). Too bad no one posting here came out last night, we had about 125 people in the audience and a great discussion afterwards. Tonight we are offering a non political evening of experimental works at Brothers Drake Meadery. Come on down and drink mead with us and watch some interesting and strange films.

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