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HEIST: Who Stole the American Dream? 8/28

Home Forums Events Film Events HEIST: Who Stole the American Dream? 8/28

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  • #510185

    DavidF
    Participant

    rus said:
    Apparently you’re licking the windows of the short bus.

    Either that or generational poverty and state dependence is a “valid point of view”.

    As if you could recognize another point of view.

    #510186
    rus
    rus
    Participant

    DavidF said:
    As if you could recognize another point of view.

    How’s that whole rational argument thing working out for ya?

    Lets try this another way. Presumably both you and I know people on public assistance. In some cases, sure, there’s conditions beyond their control that make them unfit for work, or at least work that allows them to support themselves without handouts* from the government.

    In other cases there’s those who blame everyone but themselves for their problems, those who think “making babies is the only thing I do well”, and those who’d rather get paid to be drunk / high.

    What do you say to the latter group? Anything? Or is that just another valid point of view?

    * Handouts here mean “received money as essentially charity, not in exchange for goods or services”.

    #510187
    hugh59
    hugh59
    Participant

    Cookie said:
    The showing this thread advertised was yesterday.

    Oh well. Maybe it will be on a double feature with THE AVENGERS at Studio 35 soon and I can finally see both films.

    #510188

    JonMyers
    Participant

    Peter, I believe the ball is already rolling. There is a cultural movement in America moving in a similar direction to what you’ve described. Unfortunately it’s still a fringe movement. We both know you can look to the normalization of the startup movement, and many other places for clues.

    Self-reliance, and working hard + smart is not that sexy of a national narrative.

    It’s not the kind of narrative that gets people’s hearts racing, and fingers pounding on keyboards because well… It put the responsibility back onto us as individuals.

    I should be clear though. It’s not just about working hard, or just smarter. There are hundreds of other nuances, which contribute to success. We all have individual strengths and circumstances to overcome.

    Anyhow, your second point is what I’ve been getting at all along.

    I agree inequality is an issue nations, and individuals have wrestled with since the beginning of time. The point is – it will never be solved.

    Lastly, I’m not saying nothing should be done to address inequality or debilitating personal situations, which contain huge obstacles for success.

    I’m simply saying it’s delusional to count on something effective being done to help based on precedent. Self-reliance is probably still the most effective way to address inequality versus waiting for government intervention.

    peter said:

    There’s a path down the middle resulting in greater prosperity for everyone. Maybe it involves a culture change (Jon). How do you get that ball rolling, though?

    These are complex issues that nations and individuals have wrested with for hundreds, if not thousands of years. I don’t think we’re going to solve it on a messageboard, but the discussion has been provocative.

    #510189

    bjx
    Participant

    SusanB said:
    The film in question has nothing to do with “entitlements” and everything to do with the deregulation of the financial industry and the resulting meltdown and the shift of wealth in this country in the last 20 years from the vanishing middle class to the uberwealthy.

    I didn’t see the movie yet I was right about its intent! SHOCKER! Since no one else commented on my on posts, I guess I will just quote myself (or you could actually go see the movie). Smart move to not feed the trolls anyhowz.

    bjx said:
    the problem the filmmakers/me have is that concentrated wealth gives a tremendous amount of leverage to a few.

    (RE: Entitlements/Encouraging hand-outs) I didn’t get that vibe from other posts and I would doubt the filmmakers of HEIST promote that philosophy…welfare entitlements represent a very small percentage of GDP

    Will some viewers feel like they are being hoodwinked, sure, but the for the vast majority it is just a mental nudge that wealth isn’t ALWAYS being distributed in such a manner that best serves the public, nothing more.

    Dissent is not necessarily dissatisfaction, although this is often how it is framed.

    If anything, posters seemed to fight for the rights of others and unequal leverage money provides but is not often acknowledged by those who have it. Remember that nothing makes money faster than money. (financial leverage/hedge funds/big banks)

    HEIST has already happened in the States during the Robber Barron Era. Which was basically a “low-tech machination” of what has been occurring in the U.S. over the past 20 years in the financial sector.

    In a lot of ways, the general population of the U.S. has never recovered from events that happened 100 years ago (seriously) when information and resources were controlled by a few. And this precedent doesn’t bode well for the year 2112.

    But in the long-run when your fellow citizens suffer, everyone suffers.

    Its all there in plain-sight.

    Cya’ at the food-trucks! LOL.

    #510190

    gramarye
    Participant

    DavidF said:
    So feel free to address my argument as I’ve written it, and stop trying to read things into it that aren’t there.

    You didn’t make an argument that I could address.

    There are always going to be those who are deluded as to the nature of society. The top few have always parasitically fed off of those below them.

    This is a conclusory statement, as well as an overly categorical one. I could just as easily and just as inaccurately say that the top few have always been responsible for the gains in living standards that the rest of us enjoy.

    Are we talking about bankers, hedge fund managers, private equity owners, CEOs, or just lucky heirs to large fortunes? Are we talking about the elite of the legal and medical professions? Are we talking about professional athletes and coaches? A-list actors and models? New York Times bestselling authors?

    And how can any of the activities of any of those 1%-ers be characterized as more parasitic than those of the government?

    It has nothing to do with hard work. The vast majority of Americans work hard (in fact, the last stats I saw showed we work longer hours than any other developed country) and end up with little to show for it. Yet there is this constant theme that somehow our “work ethic” is eroding. Find me a single stat that shows we are working less hard than any previous generation. It doesn’t exist.

    http://www.nber.org/digest/jul06/w11895.html

    For college-educated men, the proportion working 50 hours or more climbed from 22.2 percent to 30.5 percent in these two decades. Between 1979 and 2002, the frequency of long work hours increased by 14.4 percentage points among the top quintile of wage earners, but fell by 6.7 percentage points in the lowest quintile. There was no increase at all in work hours among high-school dropouts.

    As a result, there has been a reversal in the relationship between wages and hours. In 1983, the most poorly paid 20 percent of workers were more likely to put in long work hours than the top paid 20 percent. By 2002, the best-paid 20 percent were twice as likely to work long hours as the bottom 20 percent. In other words, the prosperous are more likely to be at work more than those earning little.

    http://www.thefreemanonline.org/features/working-family-gibberish/

    Households in the bottom quintile average less than 13 hours of work per week, while families in the top quintile average more than 74 hours of work per week. (One might object that this is an unfair comparison since some families in the bottom quintile may consist of retirees. This critique points to the fluidity of the American income distribution, for most retirees were in higher quintiles while they were working.) That the families in the top quintile work some six times more per week than families in the lowest quintile undoubtedly explains much, though not all, of the difference in income.

    This is a complicated issue that every society wrestles with and there are no simple answers, but of course if you recognize that, then it becomes difficult to feel morally superior to those who have less than you and where’s the fun in that?

    I don’t recall anyone saying that the answers were simple. If anything, I think those who simply think that everything will be just fine if we hand out enough “free” money are the ones buying into the deception of easy answers.

    #510191

    SusanB
    Participant

    Note: The 2007 data (the most current) doesn’t reflect the impact of the housing market crash. In 2007, the bottom 60% of Americans had 65% of their net worth tied up in their homes. The top 1%, in contrast, had just 10%. The housing crisis has no doubt further swelled the share of total net worth held by the superrich.

    #510192

    bjx said:
    I didn’t see the movie yet I was right about its intent! SHOCKER! Since no one else commented on my on posts, I guess I will just quote myself (or you could actually go see the movie). Smart move to not feed the trolls anyhowz.

    Cya’ at the food-trucks! LOL.

    nice fantasy, but far from the truth. have you seen hedge funds returns this year? yea not exactly making a ton of money. Equity and fixed income trading volumes are down so on the client trading side banks are not making money. barely any m&a or ipo so no moneyon IB side. With interest rates so low there is huge pressure on net interest margins so nt mch mony In makIng loans. prop trading will soon be a thing of the past thanks to Volcker rule, but regardless with the volatility of they markets no one is making money doing it anyway (see jpms recent loss). fee income is down thanks to Dodd frank and regulation e. so do you read bank earnings releases, listen to the calls, etc. or are you just another burger king worker spouting off at the mouth? if you want to get rich you dont go into finance, you do like everyone else and go into tech. your authoritative tone and the nonsense you spell are Tue reason you have nothing, not JPM or GS. humble yourself and get an education then you won’t have to flip burgers.

    #510193

    we won’t even go into all the added expenses thanks to new regulation.

    #510194

    SusanB
    Participant

    Interesting you mention tech, at the film last night was an IT worker at Honda who said that almost all the tech jobs at Honda are being outsourced to places like India.

    #510195

    Graybeak
    Participant

    Cookie said:
    Has anyone “discussing the movie” actually seen the movie?

    And while watching this movie, did you try the pizza?

    #510196

    Cookie
    Member

    SusanB said:
    Interesting you mention tech, at the film last night was an IT worker at Honda who said that almost all the tech jobs at Honda are being outsourced to places like India.

    Interesting you mention the film, in this thread about the film.

    #510197

    ToddAnders
    Blocked

    What I find more interesting is that before this very interesting debate started, the thread had 1 poster, posting to themselves about seeing a movie. I think the very discussion that has been interesting might spark more interest in the movie you seem so interested in.

    #510198

    Cookie
    Member

    ToddAnders said:
    What I find more interesting is that before this very interesting debate started, the thread had 1 poster, posting to themselves about seeing a movie. I think the very discussion that has been interesting might spark more interest in the movie you seem so interested in.

    The movie that played last night and isn’t about the topic of this discussion at all? Interesting.

    #510199
    rus
    rus
    Participant

    Cookie said:
    The movie that played last night and isn’t about the topic of this discussion at all? Interesting.

    Perhaps there’s more interest for the discussion than the movie.

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