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CBUS Circulator — Free Downtown COTA Bus Route

Home Forums General Columbus Discussion CBUS Circulator — Free Downtown COTA Bus Route

Viewing 15 posts - 76 through 90 (of 403 total)
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  • #549459
    Chris Sunami
    Chris Sunami
    Participant

    lattethunder said:
    Any tourist who comes to Columbus and is willing to venture away from the neighborhood in which their staying and is willing to take public transit (these are going to be smaller buses, but COTA buses all the same) can follow a straight line buse route for 4 stops.

    Whether or not they want to, is a different question, but again this new route uses COTA BUSES, as well.

    It seems as though a key aim of this initiative is breaking down people’s psychological resistance to riding the city buses. With that in mind, I’d like to suggest they invest in those buses that look like trolleys. Those are always very popular among tourists and I imagine they will be among locals as well.

    #549460
    Walker Evans
    Walker Evans
    Keymaster
    #549461

    lattethunder
    Participant

    Walker said:
    In related news…

    the geometric shapes of transit’s success

    Look at the second comment, Walker:

    Seems logical, though I’m not sure that the top and bottom graphics are fairly comparable. Most of the routes in the latter carry the “C” prefix, which indicates a community shuttle – often small buses that serve an area in which long buses are impractical or where potential ridership isn’t high enough to support long buses, but distances, hills, or other barriers make accessing larger routes difficult for at least some users (especially seniors).

    These circulators are meant to have less users (hence the smaller buses!)

    #549462
    Walker Evans
    Walker Evans
    Keymaster

    Oh, sure. I didn’t post that to make a case in either direction. Just thought it was incredibly odd timing that it showed up in my news feed today with this discussion currently going on here. ;)

    #549463

    InnerCore
    Participant

    lattethunder said:
    I agree that we need a route like that, as in, a North/South High (all the way down) bus route, which currently does not exist. But this route is a complete tangent from what COTA is proposing, It’s my understanding that they are trying to bring more people to downtown Amenities and near south end, and this route misses GV and most of downtown. You seem to think the park is the DT only attraction, but you are ignoring CCAD, CSCC, Franklin, Neighborhood Launch (and many smaller and older developments) and Fourth st. If 4th were a 2 way street, I think that would be the route to take, actually.

    Trying to connect CCAD, CSCC, Franklin, etc. with a circulator isn’t really helping with the basic concept of why they want to create the circulator. You really don’t need a separate bus system running every 10 min from CSCC to SN. If you are going to CSCC, CCAD, Franklin, etc. you’ll probably be doing so for a while and can take the time to figure out the bus system. The circulator is used for people visiting downtown and need to get to and from the most popular attractions.

    lattethunder said:ALSO, you are ignoring the fact the the Commons is already well served on High st. I saw 3 buses go your route in the 30 seconds it took me to walk next door for coffe an hour ago. You’re also ignoring the large amount of congestion this causes, especially on High right North of Broad. Someone in the public meeting stated they did not want this route down high street soley because it’s faster to walk. Going down 3rd would also therorectially allow them to go further north or south as traffic moves much faster on that street.

    Again seem to be missing the main purpose of the circulator. Of course there are already buses that travel most routes. The issue is that MOST people wont ride a bus. You could have 1000’s of buses go down High st. and it isn’t going to matter. Because the tourist or the person coming to downtown from Dublin is never going to get on it for the previous explained reasons. However if you identify the buses as separate (different color, make them look like trolley’s, etc.) and you have clearly identifiable bus stops and signage that shows people that it only travels a short loop downtown then people will be more likely to get on a bus.

    lattethunder said:You also seem to think this bus route is hard to follow for tourists, but it’s absolutely not. It’s a simple as “take the 2/5/whatever.” Again, it goes straight from the short North to here. The buses are labeled. Any tourist who comes to Columbus and is willing to venture away from the neighborhood in which their staying and is willing to take public transit (these are going to be smaller buses, but COTA buses all the same) can follow a straight line buse route for 4 stops.

    You are talking in theory and I’m talking in reality. Should it be simply? Sure, try telling that to my wife. The downtown map system looks like this:

    Telling people to simply get on the 2/5 doesn’t cut down on the clutter. Where does the 2 turn of High st. at and what about the local and the express. Then it’s still $2 for a single trip so it’s not conducive to getting on and off. What if you’re at the Hilton and you want to hop on and ride 10 blocks to the Hubbard Grille instead of walking 15 min. Then once you’re done you wan’t to take a trip down to Commons and then go back to the Hilton. For you and another person you’re talking about 3 trips each. That’s $10. It’s just not very convenient. Especially in a city that doesn’t have much public transit.

    lattethunder said:…This isn’t at all what I suggested although, I did hear others suggest this at the public meeting. I’d like to see mostly the same route cota has, but one that goes down 3rd instead of High. So down 3rd through Downtown/half of GV, down sycamore to the brewery district, up front to the AD, then across a little north of where it’s proposed at Buttles in the Short North (i’d like to see 1st) then back down 3rd.

    The issue with this route is that the bus would be travelling on Front and 3rd street. These are streets that no one is going to be walking up and down. So no one is going to actually get on the bus. Let’s say you have all the retail filled in around the commons. You drive down and park at the huge garage. Well as you walk up and down High st from establishment to establishment you’re not going to see the circulator stopping and dropping off people from SN. So if you now want to SN you’re simply going to get back in your car and drive up to the SN and park again.

    Columbus doesn’t have a lot of people downtown. They are trying to leverage the people coming to the SN to bolster the other aspects of downtown. Maybe 10 years in the future Front st and 3rd st. will have a decent amount of retaurants and shops. If that’s the case then they can simply add another route or change the existing one. But right now it’s clear that we need to find a way to have a downtown contained route that easily connects the entertainment and tourist parts of downtown. Those are primarily SN, AD, Commons and BD.

    Running the line up Front is already bad enough. It going to be a completely boring ride with nothing to look at. Then add in you’re not going to know where you’re at. Let’s say you hop on at the Hilton and ride down to the AD. But on the way back you want to stop at the retail at the Commons. You not going to know where to get off at. Then on top of that your going to have to get off, walk a couple blocks over, and when your done you have to walk a couple blocks back to front in order to ride it back up to the Hilton, where again you’re not going to know exactly where you’re at because you’re not on High st. It should go back up the same street that it goes down. If we had a lot of retail up and down Front st. then the added confusion would be worth it. But basically the only attractions on Front st. are the AD and the BD.

    #549464

    lattethunder
    Participant

    InnerCore said:
    Trying to connect CCAD, CSCC, Franklin, etc. with a circulator isn’t really helping with the basic concept of why they want to create the circulator. You really don’t need a separate bus system running every 10 min from CSCC to SN. If you are going to CSCC, CCAD, Franklin, etc. you’ll probably be doing so for a while and can take the time to figure out the bus system. The circulator is used for people visiting downtown and need to get to and from the most popular attractions.

    You tend to take small parts of people’s posts than blow them into full blown ideas, then argue agaisnt them. I don’t know if it’s intentional or not. I didn’t say anything about a circulator from CSCC to the SN, I just said downtown attractions are not all on High st.

    Again seem to be missing the main purpose of the circulator. Of course there are already buses that travel most routes. The issue is that MOST people wont ride a bus. You could have 1000’s of buses go down High st. and it isn’t going to matter. Because the tourist or the person coming to downtown from Dublin is never going to get on it for the previous explained reasons. However if you identify the buses as separate (different color, make them look like trolley’s, etc.) and you have clearly identifiable bus stops and signage that shows people that it only travels a short loop downtown then people will be more likely to get on a bus.

    I don’t think I missed this at all, I think I addressed it? You’re talking about a tourist who comes to a transit unfriendly city and attempts leave the area they’re in to specifically travel a couple blocks down high st without the use of a car, while they have a car availible (as they would have to). THOSE SPECIFIC PEOPLE can probably figure out how to use a bus. Especially on the easiest to understand routes in the city.

    Now, this is not to say that everyone will use the bus. I am NOT saying that. but remember, this circulator is not to take people through the short north. at all. People who don’t want to ride the bus through the SN are pretty irrelevant. It’s to take people downtown. So, it needs to go somewhere worth going downtown, yes? It needs to run on a relatively tight time schedule, yes?

    What if you’re at the Hilton and you want to hop on and ride 10 blocks to the Hubbard Grille instead of walking 15 min. Then once you’re done you wan’t to take a trip down to Commons and then go back to the Hilton. For you and another person you’re talking about 3 trips each. That’s $10.

    You’re SOL if you get on this circulator expecting to go to the hubbard grille. On a more serious note, I’m starting to think you don’t know where the commons is, or where 3rd street is. Or are you no longer trying to tell me that the route I’d like sucks?

    The issue with this route is that the bus would be travelling on Front and 3rd street. These are streets that no one is going to be walking up and down. So no one is going to actually get on the bus. Let’s say you have all the retail filled in around the commons. You drive down and park at the huge garage. Well as you walk up and down High st from establishment to establishment you’re not going to see the circulator stopping and dropping off people from SN. So if you now want to SN you’re simply going to get back in your car and drive up to the SN and park again.

    Oh no, you DO think my route sucks. Also, I thought you said people are ready and willing to walk a block? Now they wouldn’t even walk from one side of a park to the other?

    Columbus doesn’t have a lot of people downtown. They are trying to leverage the people coming to the SN to bolster the other aspects of downtown. Maybe 10 years in the future Front st and 3rd st. will have a decent amount of retaurants and shops. If that’s the case then they can simply add another route or change the existing one. But right now it’s clear that we need to find a way to have a downtown contained route that easily connects the entertainment and tourist parts of downtown. Those are primarily SN, AD, Commons and BD.

    WAY more people live on front and 3rd than who live on High st. Why is it OK to speculate on High St’s future growth but no other areas? I’m pretty sure there are the same amount of resturants on 3rd st as on High, at the moment. And more hotels on Front and 3rd than on High. Also, again, the commons is on third as well.

    Running the line up Front is already bad enough. It going to be a completely boring ride with nothing to look at. Then add in you’re not going to know where you’re at. Let’s say you hop on at the Hilton and ride down to the AD. But on the way back you want to stop at the retail at the Commons. You not going to know where to get off at. Then on top of that your going to have to get off, walk a couple blocks over, and when your done you have to walk a couple blocks back to front in order to ride it back up to the Hilton, where again you’re not going to know exactly where you’re at because you’re not on High st. It should go back up the same street that it goes down. If we had a lot of retail up and down Front st. then the added confusion would be worth it. But basically the only attractions on Front st. are the AD and the BD.

    I’m kinda confused at what you’re getting at. Going up front you could not ride down front st from the Hilton to the AD. You could ride down high, then back up front, but that would be insane when you could walk one block west. Also… is going to the AD a reason why going up front st is a bad idea??? AD is on front St and isn’t visible from High??

    Presuming you’re trying to change my mind, I’m also not sure why you would walk a few block from 3rd st to get to the commons when the commons is on 3rd?

    Also, are you suggesting that Front street is a bad idea because it goes through the heart of two of the 4 downtown adjacent areas?

    I mean, don’t get me wrong, Front St is awful to look at (nothing fronts it!), but traffic on high is reason enough to utilize that route.

    #549465

    susank
    Member

    Staying on High St makes a lot of sense. I think carrying it through the SN will get more people on it and give it more recognition and be a hit with visitors.

    #549466

    InnerCore
    Participant

    lattethunder said:Now, this is not to say that everyone will use the bus. I am NOT saying that. but remember, this circulator is not to take people through the short north. at all. People who don’t want to ride the bus through the SN are pretty irrelevant. It’s to take people downtown. So, it needs to go somewhere worth going downtown, yes? It needs to run on a relatively tight time schedule, yes?

    I think this is where we seem to be vastly different. This should be used to TAKE people downtown. It should be used to move people WITHIN downtown. It should absolutely be used to get people through SN.

    Basically if you come downtown, once you get here you should be able to go to the majority of other places downtown. Right now those places have been outlined by COTA (which I agree with) as:

    1.COTA is in the planning stages for a downtown circulator service that would operate in the central business district and provide service to destinations including the Short North, Arena District, Greater Columbus Convention Center, German Village and Brewery District.

    I would also add Gay st. and Columbus Commons and the adjacent retail that will be here within a few years.

    Here on this map of my proposed route I highlighted the popular downtown destinations:

    lattethunder said:Presuming you’re trying to change my mind, I’m also not sure why you would walk a few block from 3rd st to get to the commons when the commons is on 3rd?

    Also for reference the Commons is located BETWEEN High st and 3rd st. The primary entrances are planned to be on High st. and Rich st.

    With the Retail located on High st and the parking garage on Rich st. the vast majority of the people are never going to walk the 3 blocks from High st over to 3rd.

    #549467

    lattethunder
    Participant

    InnerCore said:
    I think this is where we seem to be vastly different. This should be used to TAKE people downtown. It should be used to move people WITHIN downtown. It should absolutely be used to get people through SN.

    We agree on this, It seems to be that you think the SN is all there is to see “downtown.”

    Basically if you come downtown, once you get here you should be able to go to the majority of other places downtown. Right now those places have been outlined by COTA (which I agree with) as:

    1.COTA is in the planning stages for a downtown circulator service that would operate in the central business district and provide service to destinations including the Short North, Arena District, Greater Columbus Convention Center, German Village and Brewery District.

    I would also add Gay st. and Columbus Commons and the adjacent retail that will be here within a few years.

    Your route doesn’t touch GV, or AD!

    Also for reference the Commons is located BETWEEN High st and 3rd st. The primary entrances are planned to be on High st. and Rich st.

    With the Retail located on High st and the parking garage on Rich st. the vast majority of the people are never going to walk the 3 blocks from High st over to 3rd.

    Yes, it is between High and 3rd! It touches both streets which is why it is accessible from 3rd. The parking garage under the park’s entrance is on 3rd, not rich, and 3rd and High are 1 block away not three. (2nd street is west of front St and 1st doesn’t exist downtown).

    ETA: I’m not sure if you’ve seen the commons before, but there isn’t actually a building on the third street side.

    #549468

    InnerCore
    Participant

    lattethunder said:
    Your route doesn’t touch GV, or AD!

    I think you’re not properly reading the map. It goes over to Front st. DIRECTLY IN FRONT of the arena. How much more do you want it to touch the AD?

    As for GV I would probably run it down to Sycamore and then loop around and come back up High st. This would essentially be the exact same thing that COTA has proposed. Also I would have it go up to 5th but I didn’t show that as well because I didn’t want to zoom out to much to make it to blurry.

    lattethunder said:Yes, it is between High and 3rd! It touches both streets which is why it is accessible from 3rd. The parking garage under the park’s entrance is on 3rd, not rich, and 3rd and High are 1 block away not three. (2nd street is west of front St and 1st doesn’t exist downtown).

    But no one is going to be walking up and down 3rd st. Not now and no time in the near future. However in a short while you’ll have 3 new appartments directly on High st. with retail all along the ground floor. The main entrance to the park is clearly going to be on High st as depicted in the diagram.

    Also, 3rd and High aren’t one block away, they are 3 city blocks away. They just cut off the street grid so there aren’t any actual street between them at that location. Go down to GV for example and you see. High st, then Pearl st, then City Park ave, then 3rd st.

    Also for reference here is a recent pedestrian study done for downtown:

    http://www.morpc.org/pdf/DowntownColumbusPedCount_Final_Web_July15_2013.pdf

    Here are the points they decided to study for pedestrian traffic:

    Notice they didn’t even take time to study 3rd st or Front st because they know no one walks up and down those streets.

    #549469

    lattethunder
    Participant

    InnerCore said:
    I think you’re not properly reading the map. It goes over to Front st. DIRECTLY IN FRONT of the arena. How much more do you want it to touch the AD?

    As for GV I would probably run it down to Sycamore and then loop around and come back up High st. This would essentially be the exact same thing that COTA has proposed. Also I would have it go up to 5th but I didn’t show that as well because I didn’t want to zoom out to much to make it to blurry.

    OK, sorry, I was going off of your “High St all the way or else!” mentality. But here you seem to see value in venturing off High, so that’s progress.

    But no one is going to be walking up and down 3rd st. Not now and no time in the near future. However in a short while you’ll have 3 new appartments directly on High st. with retail all along the ground floor. The main entrance to the park is clearly going to be on High st as depicted in the diagram.

    Where do the people who live/work on 3rd walk? Hell, I walked to 3rd St for lunch today! As I do just about every day. Plenty of people are usually out, too, especially around the Chase Building.

    Also, 3rd and High aren’t one block away, they are 3 city blocks away. They just cut off the street grid so there aren’t any actual street between them at that location. Go down to GV for example and you see. High st, then Pearl st, then City Park ave, then 3rd st.

    This “grid” doesn’t continue ANYWHERE downtown, you know, the actual area this circulator will be in. Also, they are most definitely NOT 3 city blocks, just look at the addresses (how blocks are usually determined, its not based on streets.)

    Also for reference here is a recent pedestrian study done for downtown:

    http://www.morpc.org/pdf/DowntownColumbusPedCount_Final_Web_July15_2013.pdf

    Here are the points they decided to study for pedestrian traffic:

    Notice they didn’t even take time to study 3rd st or Front st because they know no one walks up and down those streets.

    Sigh:

    1. It says Capital Crossroads on the first page. That is only one of the downtown SIDs. It’s the furthest west of the SIDs as well. This is not a study of all of downtown. ( If it were I bet Grant St would be fairly high in the rankings given the library, a major hospital, apartment complexes, and three major schools!)

    2. They didn’t measure these areas because they have the most pedestrians, they wanted a count in order to plan development (page 1).

    3. It straight says up the highest count was at the large bus transfer area in front of COTA. That does not indicate that people walk up and down High St either, but just that they transfer buses there. The second highest count wasn’t on High st at all. (page 7)

    4. The highest time was lunch time. While that indicates there could be demand for a lunch shuttle, that doesn’t prove your point that high street is the where this route needs to go, especially considering that the majority of office buildings in this area that sit on high also sit on front (therefore both Streets would be easily accessible) or are in between High and 3rd.

    I’m getting bored with this though, you want a shuttle you and wife can use to go to the commons from the bar before 10 pm on the 3 weekends a year you’re in town, I want to be able to get to GV for lunch without walking a mile.

    But this isn’t productive.

    #549470

    tobyb
    Member

    I like InnerCore’s plan.

    #549471

    InnerCore
    Participant

    lattethunder said:
    OK, sorry, I was going off of your “High St all the way or else!” mentality. But here you seem to see value in venturing off High, so that’s progress.

    I posted that map a while ago and specifically wrote that it would deviate from High st at the AD and BD. You seem so focused on arguing random points that you aren’t even looking at what you are arguing with.

    lattethunder said:Where do the people who live/work on 3rd walk? Hell, I walked to 3rd St for lunch today! As I do just about every day. Plenty of people are usually out, too, especially around the Chase Building.

    Again ignoring the obvious. First, there aren’t a lot of people living on 3rd like you claimed. Of course there is going to be people walking on 3rd. There are people walking most places. The issue is where are most people walking.

    lattethunder said:This “grid” doesn’t continue ANYWHERE downtown, you know, the actual area this circulator will be in. Also, they are most definitely NOT 3 city blocks, just look at the addresses (how blocks are usually determined, its not based on streets.)

    Again the vast majority of people aren’t going to be going anywhere else downtown. I clearly put a map of the majority of points of interest downtown. They are all located along high with a few exceptions a block over on front.

    lattethunder said:Sigh:

    1. It says Capital Crossroads on the first page. That is only one of the downtown SIDs. It’s the furthest west of the SIDs as well. This is not a study of all of downtown. ( If it were I bet Grant St would be fairly high in the rankings given the library, a major hospital, apartment complexes, and three major schools!)

    Where did I say it was??? I clearly said that they didn’t take a survey of 3RD or FRONT which are located withing the SID. You either aren’t reading or comprehending again or you’re now just trying to divert arguments where you’re clearly wrong.

    lattethunder said:2. They didn’t measure these areas because they have the most pedestrians, they wanted a count in order to plan development (page 1).

    So why do you think they’re not taking a count on 3rd or Front. Maybe because they don’t expect much development in these areas.

    lattethunder said:3. It straight says up the highest count was at the large bus transfer area in front of COTA. That does not indicate that people walk up and down High St either, but just that they transfer buses there. The second highest count wasn’t on High st at all. (page 7)

    The second highest count was at Pearl, which would be accesses by most people off high. I placed Pearl as one of the points of interest on my map.

    lattethunder said:4. The highest time was lunch time. While that indicates there could be demand for a lunch shuttle, that doesn’t prove your point that high street is the where this route needs to go, especially considering that the majority of office buildings in this area that sit on high also sit on front (therefore both Streets would be easily accessible) or are in between High and 3rd.

    Off course the highest time right now is lunch time, most people don’t come downtown. The whole purpose of the circulator is to bring the people coming downtown and going to the SN and AD and make it more accessible for them to get to the rest of downtown. You clearly can’t seem to understand that.

    lattethunder said:I’m getting bored with this though, you want a shuttle you and wife can use to go to the commons from the bar before 10 pm on the 3 weekends a year you’re in town, I want to be able to get to GV for lunch without walking a mile.

    That’s the thing, I’m not here arguing for what I specifically want. I’m arguing for the most efficient system that will be likely to attract all the people coming downtown who wouldn’t normally get on the bus.

    I’m sure if you went and found everyone who lives anywhere downtown they would want to have the route go directly from where they are to where they want to go. But most of those routes wouldn’t server the most amount of people. You seem to want a route that goes from 3rd st. to GV. But the reality is that is that only a few people would go that route. So instead you would have to walk 3 blocks over (4 min) to High st. where you could then take it down to GV.

    lattethunder said:But this isn’t productive.

    I agree if/when the ever implement the circulator it will go down High st. not 3rd so arguing about it is pointless.

    #549472

    UrbanPlanner2112
    Participant

    I just want to point out that COTA tried the wheeled trolley thing before and it didn’t work very well. People don’t instinctively understand wheeled trolleys and tend not to use them. I still remember people stopping me downtown and asking me where to get tickets for the old trolley and where it went. I had to explain on more than once occasion that that anyone could catch it at a bus stop for a quarter. Then they would inevitably asked where a map was so that they could see where it went.

    Something with tracks or fixed infrastructure that clearly identifies its purpose is much more intuitive for people. People can see that the tracks go straight up high street. They have no idea where the wheeled trolley is going to go once they get on it.

    Perhaps they could put a giant map on the side of the thing, with a big red line and “25 cents” In 20-inch high letters. that might help.

    #549473
    Walker Evans
    Walker Evans
    Keymaster

    UrbanPlanner2112 said:
    I just want to point out that COTA tried the wheeled trolley thing before and it didn’t work very well.

    That’s a terrible reason to say that something shouldn’t be tried again.

    You learn to ride a bike by falling down a few times and getting better at it. Improve from your mistakes.

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