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CBUS Circulator — Free Downtown COTA Bus Route

Home Forums General Columbus Discussion CBUS Circulator — Free Downtown COTA Bus Route

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 403 total)
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  • #549444

    geoyui
    Participant

    lattethunder said:
    I took innercore to mean that he wanted a circulator that went down high street, turned around in a parking lot, and went back down high street without involving other roads. That is not a circulator, it’s a shuttle.

    Circulator or shuttle, to me it makes no difference. The FreeMall was the main line we took, and based on the riders, it was used by everyone (lunch crowd, tourists, kids, families, etc.) and it was generally always full.

    #549445

    lattethunder
    Participant

    InnerCore said:
    The circulator in DC isn’t used to get accross the city, it would be harder than simply getting on a regular bus. It’s used mainly to go between major attractions. So for example take the Georgetown Dupont Circle line.

    You can’t get to Georgetown by metro. So the line connects Georgetown with the two most popular metro stops nearby, Dupont Circle to the east and Rosslyn to the west. It runs in basically a straight line. The only time it deveiates is during a stretch on M street that is one way.

    So for example let’s say you are using the metro red line. You ride it down to Dupont Circle and then you simply hop on the blue line Georgetown – Dupont bus circulator and take you over to Georgetown for all the shopping and dinning on M street. Once you’re done all you have to do is hop back on the same line and you know its going right back to where it came from down primarily the exact same streets.

    The next line is the yellow Georgetown Union station line. Again it runs primarily in a straight line to connect two major points, Georgetown and Union station. They are essentially work exactly what what the metro lines but because Georgetown originally fought the metro they don’t have a line that goes there so now they need the circulator.

    But you notice they don’t have one system that goes from Georgetown over to Rossly, then over to Dupont cirle, then over to Union station. Because at that point it would be a bus system. Circulator are meant to take people from point A to point B and circulate.

    Her is the circulator in Miami:

    Again it primarily runs north and south along the same street. It joggs over to reach Mary Brickell Village because that is the main attraction for downtown. This would almost be a spitting image of running up and down High st. but jogging over to the AD and then back to to High st.

    I am not advocating it be used as a bus.

    #549446

    lattethunder
    Participant

    geoyui said:
    I agree that having some form of transit more reliable than a lengthy bus route, taxi and/or rental cars is needed from the airport, but solving that problem is not a goal or primary concern for Columbus’ circulator.

    +1

    #549447

    lattethunder
    Participant

    Walker said:
    On a recent trip to DC, we avoided their circulator bus. Too hard to figure out. Subway + Walking was much simpler.

    Anyway, I don’t think a circulator has to run in a circle to be a circulator.

    I’m not saying it should! However it should circulate people throughout the area in which it serves. I don’t think the High and front routes serve enough of downtown.

    I feel like I’ve said this 8 times already, but my issue is with how well it SERVES the neighborhood, I didn’t critize the shape of the route. High st as the furthest east part doesn’t do much for getting you to the Hills market, for example.

    #549448

    lattethunder
    Participant

    InnerCore said:
    Yes, that’s exactly what it should do and exactly what circulators in other cities do.

    This one doesn’t do that and it works pretty well: http://www.case.edu/accessservices/circle_link.html

    #549449

    lattethunder
    Participant

    geoyui said:
    Circulator or shuttle, to me it makes no difference. The FreeMall was the main line we took, and based on the riders, it was used by everyone (lunch crowd, tourists, kids, families, etc.) and it was generally always full.

    The Freemall is a shuttle. And sure, a short north shuttle would be great, but that isn’t the point of COTAs latest idea.

    ETA: Denver identifies it as a shuttle as well.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_circulator

    “A circulator bus is a more generic terms and is a bus serving an area confined to a specific locale, such as a downtown area (downtown circulator) or suburban neighborhood, with connections to major traffic corridors.”

    It’s all nomenclature that’s fuzzy, but generally a shuttle is a point A to point B fixed route, a bus is regional (or city wide, at least) and a circulator serves a neighborhood usually with a shorter route and less ridership than a bus.

    #549450

    InnerCore
    Participant

    lattethunder said:
    Just to be clear, my argument it not that it should run in a circle (I very clearly said I’d like a square). My argument is that High st isn’t A) a poorly served area and B) a destination downtown. Remember, this isn’t serving the SN, it’s actually downtown, and there’s not much going on most of the day on High inbetween the convention center and chipotle. The pint house and brothers drake are irrelevant; the circulator is not proposed to go there.

    Running in a circle and a square would mean the exact same thing. I’m assuming it would run from the SN to the north down to the BD to the south. How are Brother Drakes and Pint House irrelevant being that they’re both on that route??

    The issue is that right now the SN is the Main attraction. You can’t expand out much from that because people are only willing to walk so far. If you run a line up and down High st. then you expand the draw of high st further south from the SN.

    lattethunder said:It would be a complete tangent, but I would argue that this circulator will not magically serve the interests of many out of town tourists because they’d have to actually get to the circulator first, which is pretty much impossible from the airport on our transit system. We basically force tourists to rent cars, and i’m not sure a heavily subsidized downtown circulator is the first step to fixing that problem.

    This is riduculous. Let’s say you take a rental car from the airport to the Hilton, the future Joseph or many of the other hotels in the area. Once you get to that area you’re still going to want to move people around more efficiently. So for example if you have a toursit staying at the Hilton then they are probably going to walk to the SN and only dine there. But if you have a circulator running up and down high st then you’re going to increase the chances that you get someone from that area down to High Point or down to the BD. And as that happens then you increase the opportunities for establishments to pop up between the two.

    We just had a wedding at Via Vecchia in the BD. All of our guest stayed at the Hilton. No one went south of the Hilton because there wasn’t easily accessible transportation. There in town for 3 days, there not going to study a bus system. They want to just hop on the blue line and know they aren’t going to get lost. Again it’s one of the reasons rail does much better than buses. It usually the Blue or Red “line” not the Blue or Red “circle” or “square”.

    lattethunder said:…what? Are you saying by rail you meant a street car the first time? If thats the case I agree with you, I thought you meant light/heavy rail.

    Yes I said a rail line which includes street cars, light rail and heavy rail. I’d prefer a light rail line (which isn’t used for regional trasnporation) but would settle for a streetcar.

    lattethunder said:IT’s not just the people you miss, it’s the things. The actual activity. When’s the last time you walked up and down high street from buttles to sycamore? Especially at noon on a weekend. Where would you even go on high st? What’s the benefit of high st downtown (again, not the SN)?

    What are you talking about. High street has the most activity which is why you run it up and down that street. And in a short while you are going to have High Pointe, 250 N High, and the LC building across the street completed which ALL have retail on the ground floor. The major place you want to connect are SN, AD, Commons and BD. running up and down High is the most direct route that would server the most points of interest and residents.

    lattethunder said:As for people walking to the stations… yes of course they would. And yes, people on 3rd could walk to high. But what about those on grant? Take a look on the map, the route is skewed very far to the west (which a fair amount of commments mentioned in todays public meeting).

    I don’t think there is enough density of people living to the east of downtown to constitute a line. Trying to run the service that far east would simply criple the service and make it ineffective. If there is demand I would run a completely separate line from Grant to High st. Probably up and down Grant and then over Broad to high forming a “T”.

    #549451

    InnerCore
    Participant

    lattethunder said:
    This one doesn’t do that and it works pretty well: http://www.case.edu/accessservices/circle_link.html

    You’re funny. We’ve been talking about downtown circulators and everyone here is trying to show you what other downtown circulators do and you highlight a Universities campus shuttle. One that stops running at 5:30 with shuttles stopping ever 23 minutes.

    But further more you still seem to be missing the OBVIOUS point.

    This STILL basically runs in a STRAIGHT LINE. It doesn’t run in a circle or square. It runs along a certain route and then turns around and runs along the SAME route.

    #549452
    Walker Evans
    Walker Evans
    Keymaster

    Graybeak said:
    If it went in a rectangle, would it be a rectanglator?
    I guess a triangle would be a triangulator.
    :)

    Obviously, we need a hexagon-shaped route so that we can call it the sexulator. ;)

    #549453

    geoyui
    Participant

    A circulator bus is a more generic terms and is a bus serving an area confined to a specific locale, such as a downtown area (downtown circulator) or suburban neighborhood, with connections to major traffic corridors.”

    It’s all nomenclature that’s fuzzy, but generally a shuttle is a point A to point B fixed route, a bus is regional (or city wide, at least) and a circulator serves a neighborhood usually with a shorter route and less ridership than a bus.

    glad we agree ;)

    #549454

    lattethunder
    Participant

    InnerCore said:
    Running in a circle and a square would mean the exact same thing. I’m assuming it would run from the SN to the north down to the BD to the south. How are Brother Drakes and Pint House irrelevant being that they’re both on that route??

    The issue is that right now the SN is the Main attraction. You can’t expand out much from that because people are only willing to walk so far. If you run a line up and down High st. then you expand the draw of high st further south from the SN.

    This is riduculous. Let’s say you take a rental car from the airport to the Hilton, the future Joseph or many of the other hotels in the area. Once you get to that area you’re still going to want to move people around more efficiently. So for example if you have a toursit staying at the Hilton then they are probably going to walk to the SN and only dine there. But if you have a circulator running up and down high st then you’re going to increase the chances that you get someone from that area down to High Point or down to the BD. And as that happens then you increase the opportunities for establishments to pop up between the two.

    We just had a wedding at Via Vecchia in the BD. All of our guest stayed at the Hilton. No one went south of the Hilton because there wasn’t easily accessible transportation. There in town for 3 days, there not going to study a bus system. They want to just hop on the blue line and know they aren’t going to get lost. Again it’s one of the reasons rail does much better than buses. It usually the Blue or Red “line” not the Blue or Red “circle” or “square”.

    Yes I said a rail line which includes street cars, light rail and heavy rail. I’d prefer a light rail line (which isn’t used for regional trasnporation) but would settle for a streetcar.

    What are you talking about. High street has the most activity which is why you run it up and down that street. And in a short while you are going to have High Pointe, 250 N High, and the LC building across the street completed which ALL have retail on the ground floor. The major place you want to connect are SN, AD, Commons and BD. running up and down High is the most direct route that would server the most points of interest and residents.

    I don’t think there is enough density of people living to the east of downtown to constitute a line. Trying to run the service that far east would simply criple the service and make it ineffective. If there is demand I would run a completely separate line from Grant to High st. Probably up and down Grant and then over Broad to high forming a “T”.

    The “I very clearly said I would like a square” thing was tongue in cheek since you somehow made this about the shape of the route. Also, brothers drake and pint house are NOT on the shuttle route, the route doesn’t go further north than buttles as is.

    Also, yes, I realize the commons is an attraction, but the commons is the whole block from High to Third, running the shuttle down 3rd doesn’t disconnect the commons. However, High street current does not have the most activity downtown, I think that crown goes to Gay with South Fourth in second place.

    True, south high doesn’t have a good connector, although your Via vechia example would work just the same if the moved the eastern portion of the route one street over, as Via Vechia is on front street. Also, people from the Hilton would have a VERY short walk to the North market to catch the shuttle on front!

    I’m not sure how earlier you said people could easily walk to High st, but now moving the route one block east would be way too far away.

    You seem to be looking at this as a Short North accesory route, and I agree with you, if the point was to focus on the SN this is a terrible route. I’m just not getting the vibe that that’s what this route is intended for.

    #549455

    lattethunder
    Participant

    InnerCore said:
    You’re funny. We’ve been talking about downtown circulators and everyone here is trying to show you what other downtown circulators do and you highlight a Universities campus shuttle. One that stops running at 5:30 with shuttles stopping ever 23 minutes.

    But further more you still seem to be missing the OBVIOUS point.

    This STILL basically runs in a STRAIGHT LINE. It doesn’t run in a circle or square. It runs along a certain route and then turns around and runs along the SAME route.

    You and I have different definitions of “straight line.”

    #549456

    InnerCore
    Participant

    lattethunder said:
    You and I have different definitions of “straight line.”

    I should have explained better. If you were to get on that bus and they had a map or legend it would basically be a straight line with the Cleveland museum of art on one end and University Circle Station on the other end. The buses would travel along that route turn around and travel back along the same route. That way you can pretty much get on and off anywhere and you know you’re going to back track over the same area. So it’s still taking you from point A to point B, turning around and going from point B to point A.

    So what I’m saying is something like this:

    It deviates a little bit but it is essentially a straight line. The only thing you have to pay attention to is the flow of the traffic. You can hop of an on at any point and you know you are only going to cycle through High st. So let’s say you are staying at the Hilton. You’re walking around SN and people say you should go check out the Commons or AD. The simply tell you to jump on the red line and you know it will go there. You can get off at any point, cross the street and go right back to where you came from.

    Now what you seem to be suggesting is more like this:

    So this serves more of downtown to the east. The problem is, let’s say you get of at the Commons and you want to go back to the Hilton. Here you would actually have to continue to go south, wait for the bus to turn around and then ride back up a completely different route which would confuse most people. At this point this is essentially a bus line. So if you wanted to serve the east portion of downtown then you should probably do a completely seperate line similar to this:

    Under this scenario you would have a red line and a blue line. By making them two completely separate lines then you know people aren’t going to get confused. The problem with this second line is that right now there probably isn’t enough demand and the only people who would use it are local people who live in the neighborhood. Most people are going to be going between SN, AD, Commons and BD. If you live downtown every day near Grant then you can easily take the time to understand the existing bus system. The goal should be to make it convenient so that the people visiting downtown (whether from out of town or the suburbs) who aren’t transit riders can easily hop on and hop off.

    #549457
    Walker Evans
    Walker Evans
    Keymaster

    On a different tangent, I just wanted to say that I was happy to see the Gay Street Moonlight Market mentioned in COTA’s presentation yesterday as one of the events/attractions they have in consideration for their planning efforts. We’re proud of our little event this summer and hope to see it continue to grow! ;)

    #549458

    lattethunder
    Participant

    InnerCore said:
    I should have explained better. If you were to get on that bus and they had a map or legend it would basically be a straight line with the Cleveland museum of art on one end and University Circle Station on the other end. The buses would travel along that route turn around and travel back along the same route. That way you can pretty much get on and off anywhere and you know you’re going to back track over the same area. So it’s still taking you from point A to point B, turning around and going from point B to point A.

    So what I’m saying is something like this:

    It deviates a little bit but it is essentially a straight line. The only thing you have to pay attention to is the flow of the traffic. You can hop of an on at any point and you know you are only going to cycle through High st. So let’s say you are staying at the Hilton. You’re walking around SN and people say you should go check out the Commons or AD. The simply tell you to jump on the red line and you know it will go there. You can get off at any point, cross the street and go right back to where you came from.

    I agree that we need a route like that, as in, a North/South High (all the way down) bus route, which currently does not exist. But this route is a complete tangent from what COTA is proposing, It’s my understanding that they are trying to bring more people to downtown Amenities and near south end, and this route misses GV and most of downtown. You seem to think the park is the DT only attraction, but you are ignoring CCAD, CSCC, Franklin, Neighborhood Launch (and many smaller and older developments) and Fourth st. If 4th were a 2 way street, I think that would be the route to take, actually.

    ALSO, you are ignoring the fact the the Commons is already well served on High st. I saw 3 buses go your route in the 30 seconds it took me to walk next door for coffe an hour ago. You’re also ignoring the large amount of congestion this causes, especially on High right North of Broad. Someone in the public meeting stated they did not want this route down high street soley because it’s faster to walk. Going down 3rd would also therorectially allow them to go further north or south as traffic moves much faster on that street.

    You also seem to think this bus route is hard to follow for tourists, but it’s absolutely not. It’s a simple as “take the 2/5/whatever.” Again, it goes straight from the short North to here. The buses are labeled. Any tourist who comes to Columbus and is willing to venture away from the neighborhood in which their staying and is willing to take public transit (these are going to be smaller buses, but COTA buses all the same) can follow a straight line buse route for 4 stops.

    Whether or not they want to, is a different question, but again this new route uses COTA BUSES, as well.

    Now what you seem to be suggesting is more like this:

    …This isn’t at all what I suggested although, I did hear others suggest this at the public meeting. I’d like to see mostly the same route cota has, but one that goes down 3rd instead of High. So down 3rd through Downtown/half of GV, down sycamore to the brewery district, up front to the AD, then across a little north of where it’s proposed at Buttles in the Short North (i’d like to see 1st) then back down 3rd.

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