Cleveland's beautiful, modern apartment proposal for downtown

[I_am_Father_McKenzieParticipant]

CbusIslander wrote:

Has anyone made a list of the proposed/under construction list of apartments/condos in the Downtown area as of today similar to that Cleveland comment above?

You will probably see a similar list to Cleveland just more smaller scale projects. Some on that Cleveland list will take years to get to completion (if getting built at all). Columbus is doing right with its Downtown development, correct scale and costs which will actually be able to have shovels in the ground. Downtown Columbus has such a large area to work with, but in time the larger scale projects will come in.

Columbus has much larger rental units in construction across the metro than Cleveland has currently. Must look at the grander picture here.

LeVeque: 78
Atlas: 88
250 High: 121
LC Riversouth: 243
LC Matan: 117
Gay/High: 240
Hartman: 65
Park’s Edge: 69
Pen West: 300
Lucas Lofts: 69
Town/5th: 84
Madison’s: 30
The Julian: 90
Main/Front: 75
Long/Front: 34
Hawthorne Grove: 30
330 Oak: 100
Bishop’s Walk II: 26
Two25: 170
Stoddart: 52
Ballet Met/CSCC: 70
11 E Gay: 16
400 W Rich: 124
Warner Junction: 18
W Walnut St.: 25
W Rich Warehouses: 50
Neilston: 130
6th St Mews: 13

That’s all I can think of. That’s 2,527 units. Less than half the Cleveland list.

[JManParticipant]

My feeling is that we’ll get some form of rail here with the design and opening of the new airport terminal. It’s 15 years down the road – perfect timing for a good long range transit plan. In the meantime, we have a BRT line opening in a few years and the CBUS. One thing that puzzles me is: why no dedicated lanes for our BRT? Indy is opening their BRT in 2018, a year after ours, but with dedicated lanes. It’s called the red line.

[Walker EvansKeymaster]

I_am_Father_McKenzie wrote:

That’s all I can think of. That’s 2,527 units. Less than half the Cleveland list.

Not to ask you to crunch a whole lot of extra numbers, but I wonder (I haven’t looked) if Cleveland has as much development activity in its near-Downtown neighborhoods like Columbus is. This same apples/orange comparison was just made with Indianapolis the other day where it was mentioned that Indy’s Downtown was stronger than Columbus’ while Columbus’ urban neighborhoods are stronger than Indy’s.

Jeffrey Park alone is approximately 1,300 units, but it’s a couple hundred feet outside of the Downtown boundary, so it doesn’t get included. Same goes for everything else in Italian Village, the Short North, Victorian Village, Brewery District, OSU Campus, 5xNW, etc.

We’re a little more spread out (as we’ve always been) but I’d be really curious what comparisons looked like (to many cities) if we drew a 2 mile ring around Downtown to make the “urban development” comparison rather than just the self-defined boundaries of our Downtowns proper.

[WJTParticipant]

Walker Evans wrote:

<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>I_am_Father_McKenzie wrote:</div>
That’s all I can think of. That’s 2,527 units. Less than half the Cleveland list.

Not to ask you to crunch a whole lot of extra numbers, but I wonder (I haven’t looked) if Cleveland has as much development activity in its near-Downtown neighborhoods like Columbus is. This same apples/orange comparison was just made with Indianapolis the other day where it was mentioned that Indy’s Downtown was stronger than Columbus’ while Columbus’ urban neighborhoods are stronger than Indy’s.

Jeffrey Park alone is approximately 1,300 units, but it’s a couple hundred feet outside of the Downtown boundary, so it doesn’t get included. Same goes for everything else in Italian Village, the Short North, Victorian Village, Brewery District, OSU Campus, 5xNW, etc.

We’re a little more spread out (as we’ve always been) but I’d be really curious what comparisons looked like (to many cities) if we drew a 2 mile ring around Downtown to make the “urban development” comparison rather than just the self-defined boundaries of our Downtowns proper.

There is a very good point to be made about ‘downtown size’. The given sizes of downtown’s around the nation do not conform to any set standards or guidelines.

Take Indianapolis, for example. They no longer include just the ‘mile square’ as ‘downtown’, but officially downtown Indy is over 6 square miles-4 times larger than the 1.5 miles of Cbus. I know I have seen development numbers and population numbers discussed for Indy that definitely are for the entire 6 plus square miles.

How would Columbus compare if we simply expanded the area covered by our ‘downtown’ by including everything north from 670 to Lane Avenue, and from the Olentangy to the railroad tracks on the east? That would actually make our downtown area about the same size as Indy’s. How would the population #’s the development $ #’s, etc compare then?

Also looking at the proposals listed, there are over 2500 units listed. If all of those get built by 2020(giving nearly 4 years for it to get built and occupied), that would add at least 3500 people to downtown, taking the population over 11,000. And that does not include any future proposals, such as anything on the Scioto peninsula(officially part of downtown) or the Nationwide area in Pen West where the casino was supposed to go.

Unless there is another recession or some other unknown factor comes into play, I can see downtown having close to 15,000 people by 2020. That is 10,000 people per square mile. Indy would have to have 65,000 to match that.

We may be behind other peer cities, but it is not exactly like we are sitting still, and I think we are at least moving in the right direction. And the more investment the city puts into transit and amenities downtown(like the Scioto Greenway) then the more investment will come into play from the private sector.
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*For those too long didn’t read-it ain’t THAT bad!

[MichaelCParticipant]

Another big project announced in Downtown Cleveland:

The owner of the Nautica Entertainment Complex envisions a $405 million, residentially-driven development that could start in 2018 and take seven years to finish. The master plan calls for 664 apartments spread across four buildings, including a linked pair of tall towers set into a man-made lagoon leading into the Cuyahoga River.

Renderings also show an office building, a hotel, three parking garages and reconfigured streets.

Large portions of the development would replace parking lots near Windows on the River, but the renderings show that Jacobs also could demolish existing buildings along Main Avenue and Center Street, including the Apartments at Nautica and the Harbor Inn, often described as the city’s oldest continuously operating bar.

[Jason PowellParticipant]

Wow! That’s interesting. It’s surrounded by a moat. That might drive up costs a bit.

[CbusIslanderParticipant]

Yet another Cleveland grand proposal likely to not go anywhere. Unless the Cleveland tax payer wants to fork over some extra dollars their way.

[cbustransitParticipant]

I don’t know what you mean about ‘not go anywhere.’ Cleveland has tons of massive finished and underway projects that blow some of Columbus’ downtown out of the water. The 9, the Downtown Heinens, the Leader Building, the Standard Building, the Halle Building, the Flats East Bank. These are massive and underway or completed projects. These don’t even mention proposed projects.

http://www.downtowncleveland.com/media/265561/q12016_spreadscompressed.pdf

[CbusIslanderParticipant]

cbustransit wrote:

I don’t know what you mean about ‘not go anywhere.’ Cleveland has tons of massive finished and underway projects that blow some of Columbus’ downtown out of the water. The 9, the Downtown Heinens, the Leader Building, the Standard Building, the Halle Building, the Flats East Bank. These are massive and underway or completed projects. These don’t even mention proposed projects.

http://www.downtowncleveland.com/media/265561/q12016_spreadscompressed.pdf

Yes, the majority of the projects Cleveland has completed above used a number of “public” funds to convert old office space to residents during the past 10 years or so, and will continue to do so with upcoming Terminal Tower, Erieview, etc. The problem is there is very little job growth, owner units and new build units occurring downtown. The larger the project the less likely it will occur. Maybe one of the recent large proposed projects will occur but at most only one. Which developer will win? Nucleus? Lakeshore? this location? University Circle? Warehouse district?

[ohbrParticipant]

Islander is correct in that many of these major Cleveland projects come with direct public funding beyond abatements. Nucleus even petitioned for money from the state budget to get completed so not only CLE taxpayers would be on the hook, we would be too. While I have frustrations with tax abatements, I am happy to see Columbus Developers are putting forth the money on their own even if that has cost us some larger projects.

I can see where this moated building may have an opportunity for public finding being connected to and off the main waterway. We’ll see what kind of public/private deal they work up here.

[cbustransitParticipant]

Yes, the projects downtown are using public funding. In the exact same way that developers in Columbus are using public funding.

The atlas building: 6.4 million in historic preservation funds from ohio and the feds. plus a 10 year tax abatement: http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2013/09/29/an-old-time-charm.html

The Columbus Commons apartments: a 4.5 million dollar TIF for infrastructure plus parking from Capital South.

The 250 High building: Changed the tax abatement laws to allow a 15 year, 100% tax abatement plus parking from Capital South. http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2013/11/18/city-hopes-to-encourage-downtown.html

The downtown Hilton: Publicly financed.

Nationwide Arena: Bought with public financing.

The potential move to Columbus of the Cleveland Browns training camp: Requesting millions in direct capital funds (request later withdrawn because it was over the top) to move.

All of the development at Ohio State: Funded by the state. That is something that does not occur in Cleveland. Cleveland State gets next to nothing compared to OSU

All of this is just to say, developments across the state use public funding.

[ohbrParticipant]

The OSU development, not all funded by the state. Much of that also comes from endowments and donations they are required to spend. Believe it or not, people donate lots of money and designate it only to be used on housing.

I think youre missing the point. It’s not the exact same way other projects get public funding. Tax incentives are one thing. Nucleus, University Circle Condos and other projects are getting direct funding from tax payers for private buildings. That’s what is happening in CLE. Very different from public venues potentially getting funding, garage access, tifs, and abatements. The Nucleus project may even be getting casino tax revenue to help with construction costs. Can you imagine diverting casino tax revenue to the construction of a private development here?

[wpcc88Participant]

ohbr wrote:

The OSU development, not all funded by the state. Much of that also comes from endowments and donations they are required to spend. Believe it or not, people donate lots of money and designate it only to be used on housing.

I think youre missing the point. It’s not the exact same way other projects get public funding. Tax incentives are one thing. Nucleus, University Circle Condos and other projects are getting direct funding from tax payers for private buildings. That’s what is happening in CLE. Very different from public venues potentially getting funding, garage access, tifs, and abatements. The Nucleus project may even be getting casino tax revenue to help with construction costs. Can you imagine diverting casino tax revenue to the construction of a private development here?

Thank you for explaining that much better than I could. I was about to post something similar last night but was mildly furious that people didn’t realize taxpayers are funding a lot of private development in Cleveland. The R&R HoF, Browns Stadium, Jacobs Field, the Gund and I’m pretty sure even the casino in Cleveland were all taxpayer funded and much of the Flats East Bank development as well.

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