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Cleveland Development - News & Updates

Home Forums General Columbus Discussion Development Cleveland Development – News & Updates

Viewing 15 posts - 91 through 105 (of 129 total)
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  • #1058547

    jbcmh81
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>jbcmh81 wrote:</div>

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>derm wrote:</div><br>
    Is there enough demand for Columbus to build a 50 story, 250 unit without the property tax abatements that have driven the high end downtown influx? From what I get talking to people is that they either want affordable housing downtown(single, professional)(1200 or less per month), or they want a three+ bedroom downtown(family)(2000 or less per month). Are those numbers doable?

    A big part of the pricing in projects is market-related. Rents have been rising in part because of high demand. Look how many projects are selling or renting units in some cases before projects are complete, or even started. How many of these new 5-story projects would be considered affordable?

    While I don’t know what the pricing point would be on a major project like a 50-story residential building, one thing it does do is provide more supply. The more supply there is to meet demand, that would help keep prices stable at least, or perhaps come down some on average. Columbus right now seems to be building behind the curve.

    I guess I wonder how much of the market is speculation driven. Whenever I hear about how things are selling and renting before projects are completed I think back to 2000 and 2008. When the tax abatements are over, and the prime rate starts to tick back up are these projects going to continue to be sustainable. A tremendous amount of the high end right now is driven by money that has no other place to go to chase a buck and I am curious to see what happens when the music ends and every body grabs for a chair.

    The problem with thinking that this is all some kind of tax abatement market is that urban development booms are happening in just about every major city. Are all those markets propped up and it’s all built on some kind of house of cards? That seems seriously unrealistic and implies that there really is no real demand in play.

    #1058549
    derm
    derm
    Participant

    Not all tax abatement. Not all speculation. However when you add two little shots of gasoline to a simmering fire it will flare up. I have seen it before. Right now real estate, especially at the high end, cash purchases, flipped properties, with extremely low interest rates for the top say 10-20% of earners is humming along very well. Add into that demographics are perfect for this in this time block. I recognize the demand, but I also recognize that there are several little bits of life support goosing this market as well.

    #1058555
    Walker Evans
    Walker Evans
    Keymaster

    When the tax abatements are over, and the prime rate starts to tick back up are these projects going to continue to be sustainable.

    I think it’s a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison. The condo boom was fueled by tax-abatements that were passed along to homeowners/buyers. Renters are not the recipient of tax abatements, and I’m not even sure if too many of these apartment developments are getting tax abatements on the developer end (I can’t recall reading about that very often, unless that was somehow left out of public information).

    #1058561

    jbcmh81
    Participant

    Not all tax abatement. Not all speculation. However when you add two little shots of gasoline to a simmering fire it will flare up. I have seen it before. Right now real estate, especially at the high end, cash purchases, flipped properties, with extremely low interest rates for the top say 10-20% of earners is humming along very well. Add into that demographics are perfect for this in this time block. I recognize the demand, but I also recognize that there are several little bits of life support goosing this market as well.

    Even if that was true, how exactly would this be any different than any other time in regards to housing? Single-family homes out in the ‘burbs aren’t exactly built upon fair market value for all the infrastructure it takes to create green-field development. It requires subsidization, and that occurred for how many decades through today? Now that the urban areas have real demand, cities are absolutely going to take advantage of that and perhaps occasionally offer tax incentives for development projects. However, as Walker mentioned, this seemed to be more in relation to condo developments, which aren’t a significant part of the current urban housing boom. I do remember that when Coleman put forth his goal of building 10,000 new residential units through 2010 (the goal was put forth in 2002), there were some tax abatements because there was almost nil urban residential development 13 years ago. Between 2002-2007 and the market crash, Downtown had fewer units completed with those abatements than it has in just the last year or two. Demand is clearly the dominant driver now, not abatements.

    However, do you have any information on how many urban residential projects are getting tax breaks? If a large number are, does that mean all cities are doing the same thing as they’re all showing urban residential booms?

    #1058570
    King Gambrinus
    King Gambrinus
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>King Gambrinus wrote:</div>
    I think the downtown residential market is hotter in Cleveland than it is here. One thing they’ve seen alot of is conversions of commercial towers into residential/hotel buildings. They have numerous large scale conversion projects that are nearly completed, ongoing, or proposed. (The 9,Residences at 1717, The Schofield,Halle Building, Leader Building, May Company Building, Standard Building, etc). We have the Atlas, and a portion of the Leveque. They’re running out of buildings to convert and that generates demand for new towers. I believe this will get built, and yes it will require public support in the form of a TIF or loans, but no one pays $26M for a parking lot to sit on their hands. At least I hope not. Plus, Stark already said he planned to have the parking deck completed before their convention.

    If I come off jealous, it’s because I am. I understand the whole DC argument of 5 story infill. But a new tower is exciting and defining. But we need to step up our game and go big downtown.

    See above. Is Cleveland’s downtown market *truly* stronger, or do they just have better advocates in the development/city leadership to push for it?

    I’ll admit I don’t know all that much about city involvement in either Cleveland or Columbus. My take, from what I’ve read on here and urban Ohio, etc. Is that the Cleveland downtown market is stronger and is demanding more units. I saw an article from August that said Downtown Cleveland had a 1000 units under construction and 1100 in planning. I’m not sure if the Nucleus Project was included in that. But those were units just downtown.

    I think part of it is dynamics. Cleveland had a lot of existing half empty commercial buildings that were great for conversions and their downtown seems to have fewer empty lots. So if you’re going to develop it has to be up. Here in Columbus there’s so much empty space you have the ability to develop out, which is cheaper and gives you a Highpoint. I also think overall demand is probably stronger here, but it’s more spread out. It’s not just downtown but arena district, short north, VV, IV, etc. If everyone was all wanting to live directly downtown I think you’d see things getter higher and more dense. I mean imagine if a Jeffrey Park was confined to a tower, it’d be huge!

    Unfortunately, I think we’re gonna have to wait for a lot of the empty space to go away and for land prices to go up before we see another building over 15 stories. I hope I’m wrong though, I like skyscrapers.

    #1058581

    NEOBuckeye
    Participant

    I think part of it is dynamics. Cleveland had a lot of existing half empty commercial buildings that were great for conversions and their downtown seems to have fewer empty lots. So if you’re going to develop it has to be up. Here in Columbus there’s so much empty space you have the ability to develop out, which is cheaper and gives you a Highpoint. I also think overall demand is probably stronger here, but it’s more spread out. It’s not just downtown but arena district, short north, VV, IV, etc. If everyone was all wanting to live directly downtown I think you’d see things getter higher and more dense. I mean imagine if a Jeffrey Park was confined to a tower, it’d be huge!

    Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

    I’ll say it again, CUers: Comparing Columbus with Cleveland for the purpose of development analysis is pointless. They’re two completely different cities that just happen to fall within the same state. You might as well be comparing Columbus with Pittsburgh, Detroit, or even New York City. If the northern state boundary ended just south of Mansfield, this thread wouldn’t even exist.

    Seriously, try Indianapolis, Austin, or Phoenix. You’ll get better mileage out of these cities in the form of a more constructive comparison, instead of what amounts here to one side of an in-state pissing contest. (The other side can be found on just about any pro-Cleveland website.)

    #1058601

    ohbr
    Participant

    King Gambrinus and NEOBuckeye pretty much summed it up IMO. I LOVE both cities. Have spent significant time in each. I could easily live in either for very different reasons and we have to realize both are in very different positions and times in the life cycle of the city. And Like NEOBuckeye eludes to, If you’d like some fun reading, try reading the comment section on the Plain Dealer anytime there is an article about Columbus or Short North.

    #1058605

    rory
    Participant

    The difference is the comfort zones of the developers in Columbus and Cleveland. A lot of developers in downtown Cleveland are comfortable with working with historic buildings and tax credits. I went to a panel discussion with Cleveland developers who were bragging about renovating a building that had a large tree growing through the roof. I can’t see something like that in Columbus evading demolition. The Cleveland developers tack was when they were out of historic buildings downtown they’d build new on parking lots. I’ve talked to Columbus developers who say when we’re out of parking lots they’d start converting historic commercial buildings to apartments which we’re starting to see although there are still plenty of parking lots. I think what makes the downtown Cleveland market look strong is that’s where all the historic buildings are located and that’s what developers there like. In Columbus, development is concentrated on new or old vacant land and brown fields that are scattered all through the inner-city. I expect that if the urban migration continues we’ll see more new builds in Cleveland and more historic conversions in Columbus.

    #1060931

    ohbr
    Participant

    First looks at the new downtown grocery store. It looks like it may be quite the showpiece for the downtown neighborhood. The city also announced groundbreaking for the Public Square overhaul could begin as early as February.

    http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/01/first_look_design_of_new_downt.html#incart_m-rpt-1

    #1061693

    News
    Participant

    The Neighborhood Has Gentrified, But Where’s the Grocery Store?
    BY SCOTT BEYER | FEBRUARY 2015

    This story is part of a series on gentrification, which appears online and in the February 2015 print issue. If you’re an urban pioneer who settled in downtown Cleveland sometime in the past decade, you’re probably happy with the neighborhood’s progress. Even as the city as a whole has continued to lose population, the central area has revived thanks to an influx of young and educated newcomers. Downtown Cleveland right now has its highest-ever population, with more than 13,000 residents and lots of new housing developments on the way. There are more than 4,000 hotel rooms, with another thousand expected by 2016. And residents today enjoy a more walkable neighborhood, as new restaurants and bars open around old cultural institutions like the theater district.

    READ MORE: http://www.governing.com/topics/mgmt/gov-retail-gentrification-series.html

    #1064437

    ohbr
    Participant

    Not long after the Cleveland Museum of Art wrapped up is massive expansion and the nearby addition of the Modern Museum of Art, University Circle is about to get another massive expansion through the Natural History Museum and it looks amazing.

    http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/02/first_look_cleveland_museum_of.html#incart_m-rpt-1

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    #1071914

    News
    Participant

    Grocery Store Chain Gambles on Downtown Cleveland
    BY ALEXIS STEPHENS | APRIL 9, 2015

    Heinen’s of Downtown Cleveland represents a $10 million gamble by the family that people will continue to find the central business district an attractive place to live and work. “We might actually get to 20,000 people, but that’s a bet,” says Heinen. “And not one you can say, ‘Oh, this should only take 12 more months. We’re talking about four or five more years.’”

    READ MORE: http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/family-grocers-gamble-on-downtown-cleveland

    #1081212

    nohio
    Participant

    More exciting news for downtown development in the state of OH from today’s Cleveland.com

    http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/06/new_owner_of_huntington_buildi.html#incart_m-rpt-1

    #1081214
    MichaelC
    MichaelC
    Participant

    From the above story:

    550 high-end rental units, 400,000 square feet of office space, 300 high-end hotel rooms and the world’s largest bank lobby (at 61,000 square feet, ca. 1926; see photos) open to the public and/or private functions.

    #1082521

    News
    Participant

    How Millennials Are Reviving Cleveland
    The downtown population is at an all-time high, and young workers are leading the way.
    ERIC JAFFE – Jun 23, 2015

    In reporting an Atlantic piece on James Corner’s fantastic redesign of Cleveland’s Public Square, I was surprised by the strength of the city’s downtown revival. After a tailspin in the 1980s, Cleveland’s downtown population soared 32 percent from 1990 to 2000—the biggest rise of any Midwest city (including Chicago) and far above the regional average (7.7 percent), according to Brookings. The climb has continued at pace; last summer downtown reportedly reached an “all-time high” of 12,500, with an astonishing residential occupancy rate of 98 percent.

    READ MORE: http://www.citylab.com/work/2015/06/how-millennials-are-reviving-cleveland/396572/?utm_source=nl__link1_062415

Viewing 15 posts - 91 through 105 (of 129 total)

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