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The Dispatch wrote
Streetcar FAQ
Sunday, May 25, 2008
BY ROBERT VITALE
Here are more questions than answers right now about the plan to bring streetcars back to Columbus, even among the people pitching the idea.
After the City Council balked earlier this month at approving $2 million to design a system its members haven’t yet approved, Mayor Michael B. Coleman acknowledged “Our public needs more information.”
A funding proposal, he has said, is ” a financial scenario, not the financial scenario” — meaning it’s all subject to change. After two years of study by consultants and community members, here’s what we do know:
Comments
- Rmoiii: Where are the photo's of the current construction going on in the short nor
- cheap: i highly recommend the Millersport sweet corn festival of course,the cor
- Jimmy Mak: Thanks for the write-up! Just to clarify - this is the third year we've do
- Briana Henry: Well, eventually they plan to add more bands from the region...gotta start
- bucki12: I like the business model, but the internet sales part seems like something
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The Dispatch Publishes a "Streetcar FAQ"
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The cost and the fact that the train would run a small section of high st. seems to not figure into the “we want a train” part of it
Portland: 4.8 mile loop starter line…2 billion dollars of development within 2 years in the streetcar district.
Kenosha: 1.7 mile starter line…150 million dollars in development along the line.
Little Rock: 2.5 mile starter line…200 million dollars in development along the line.
Tampa: 2.3 mile starter line…1 billion dollars in development along the line.
There’s many more I can cite as well if you like. In addition, the streetcar study expects 90,000 additional visitors to Columbus, resulting in more hotel rooms, more jobs, and of course more money.
This has little to do with “real cities” having them.
To be clear, I want the “train” not because of the novelty or to compete with streetcars. In fact, as planned I probably wouldn’t use it. My apartment in the fall is closer to the #7 COTA line and where I would like to be in Columbus in the future (East Side of Downtown) won’t be served for a long, long time. My bike is the best option when I move.
That said, the economic benefits are profound. As Core points out, there is a lot of economic development that can be attributed to streetcars.
My biggest reason for supporting them is the grand idea, that we could have commuter rail, better bussing and other transit options (bikeway and pedestrian options) tied in to create a multi-modal system. When car ownership on average is 8-9k/year and yearly, unlimited transit costs total around 800-1000, doesn’t it begin to make sense to offer a multi-modal system in our city that gives people options in transit?
Build a roller coaster right down the middle of high st. That would bring in real money!! :wink:
Either join the debate..a real debate that has been going on here…about the merits of the project and offer rationale and logic to your point or simply stop. Your posts border on the absurd, if not the childish, and are frankly getting to be very annoying.
ETA:
Core and I both offered a reasoned response to the “just want a train” and “big city” argument you presented. Why not counter that point instead of posting this ridiculous roller coaster and mountain BS?
The cost and the fact that the train would run a small section of high st. seems to not figure into the “we want a train” part of it
Portland: 4.8 mile loop starter line…2 billion dollars of development within 2 years in the streetcar district.
Kenosha: 1.7 mile starter line…150 million dollars in development along the line.
Little Rock: 2.5 mile starter line…200 million dollars in development along the line.
Tampa: 2.3 mile starter line…1 billion dollars in development along the line.
There’s many more I can cite as well if you like. In addition, the streetcar study expects 90,000 additional visitors to Columbus, resulting in more hotel rooms, more jobs, and of course more money.
This has little to do with “real cities” having them.
Portland: Served by the MAX light rail system. http://trimet.org/max/index.htm
Kenosha: Served by the Metra rail system. http://metrarail.com/Sched/cnw_n/kenosha.shtml
Little Rock: Got me on this one. Although I’m not sure how a city with a metro population 1,000,000 less than Columbus, with a streetcar system that just had to double their fares relates well to streetcars here.
Tampa: Hmm…looks like it’s working out well. http://www.sptimes.com/2008/02/17/Hillsborough/Decision_nearer_on_fa.shtml
The cost and the fact that the train would run a small section of high st. seems to not figure into the “we want a train” part of it
Portland: 4.8 mile loop starter line…2 billion dollars of development within 2 years in the streetcar district.
Kenosha: 1.7 mile starter line…150 million dollars in development along the line.
Little Rock: 2.5 mile starter line…200 million dollars in development along the line.
Tampa: 2.3 mile starter line…1 billion dollars in development along the line.
There’s many more I can cite as well if you like. In addition, the streetcar study expects 90,000 additional visitors to Columbus, resulting in more hotel rooms, more jobs, and of course more money.
This has little to do with “real cities” having them.
I still have to question the development dollars that are quoted due to the streetcar systems. I am not familiar with when these systems were developed, but did it just so happen to coincide with the real estate boom of the past few years?
Also, based on what you are saying, the study says that 90K more people are going to come to C-Bus because we have a streetcar line running up and down High?? That is real hard to believe.
I’d just like to see cities near the size of the Columbus metro area that have implemented successful, sustainable streetcar/trolley systems without any sort of light or commuter rail. I took a very quick look at the metro areas that ranked 5 above to 5 below Columbus and here’s what I found as far as if they had light rail and/or streetcars;
Orlando – None
San Antonio – None
Kansas City – Light Rail (future)
Las Vegas – None
San Jose – Light Rail, Seasonal trolley
Columbus
Indianapolis – None
Virginia Beach/Norfolk – Light Rail (future)
Charlotte – Light Rail
Providence – Commuter Rail
Austin – Light Rail (future)
If I made a mistake, I apologize, I looked those up pretty quickly, but I definitely see a trend. Like I said, please show me a city comparable to Columbus that has put in a streetcar system that has been successful without any other type of light rail.
Orlando – None
San Antonio – None
Kansas City – Light Rail (future)
Las Vegas – None
San Jose – Light Rail, Seasonal trolley
Columbus
Indianapolis – None
Virginia Beach/Norfolk – Light Rail (future)
Charlotte – Light Rail
Providence – Commuter Rail
Austin – Light Rail (future)
If I made a mistake, I apologize, I looked those up pretty quickly, but I definitely see a trend. Like I said, please show me a city comparable to Columbus that has put in a streetcar system that has been successful without any other type of light rail.
That is one issue that might need to be addressed, but it is very complex. I think to make a worthy comparison we have to compare where the lines were ran in relation to how successful they were.
For Columbus we have within the proposed 2.8 mile stretch:
At least 18 hotels within the benefit zone
3 pretty major sport venues (Destroyers, Jacket, Clippers), 4 if you count the Buckeyes with a little walk from the northern point of the Streetcar
Several Theatres- Palace, Ohio, Riffe and Southern
A major, national research University in the form of OSU and the 50k + students, faculty and staff
Several other colleges within walking distance of High- CSCC, CCAD, Franklin
Seat of government-city, county, state and federal
Major technology and research employer within walking distance-Batelle
Several museums, some directly connected and others within walking distance-COSI, Columbus Museum of Art, The Statehouse, Wexner Center
Columbus Convention Center
Several vibrant neighborhoods as well as a major center of locally owned business
Concert venue at Nationwide
Forgetting anything here?
I think to really make a viable comparison you would have to show us how exactly Columbus compares to these cities. One of the reasons I think the High St line, backed by a vision of future rail projects, infrastructure improvements and other transit options, makes perfect sense and will most likely do well, is because of the proximity to those things listed.
best freaking idea ive heard all year!!!! love it… :D
it’s a 3% increase in convention business…which I believe to be low when you are adding a streetcar right in front of the convention center that takes passengers to the Short North, Wexner, Gateway, etc.
Orlando- http://www.cityoforlando.net/planning/transportation/dto-ddc.htm
San Antonio – http://www.viainfo.net/Organization/OrganizationMain.aspx
Kansas City – Light Rail (future)
Las Vegas – http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max/ & http://www.lvmonorail.com/
San Jose – Light Rail, Seasonal trolley
Columbus
Indianapolis – http://www.ibj.com/html/detail_page.asp?content=10869
Virginia Beach/Norfolk – Light Rail (future)
Charlotte – Light Rail
Providence – Commuter Rail
Austin – Light Rail (future)
First time CU poster here. I’ve been following this debate for a few months now, and while I’m sure this has all been said before, here are my 2 cents…
-Besides the almighty, oft-referenced Portland, streetcars make their way thru several European cities. From my specific experiences in Amsterdam, Prague and Warsaw, they easily coexist with bicyclists, cars and pedestrians. A lot of these roads are narrow and while there can be some gridlock during peak times (like anywhere), the streetcars are a great way to get around town.
-I know the initial plans are only to go up High Street, but this is only a start. I’m thinking once this is up and running, surrounding areas will be more receptive to increasing funding and expanding the track.
-People complain that this is a transportation service for Yuppies. I think this is partly true. There are a lot of college kids and young professionals that wouldn’t ride the bus because they think it is sketchy or unsafe. They would ride the streetcar because there is a different connotation attached with it. Not to get all political, but targeting these people is important because the city needs to continue investing in this demographic as these are the ones who help the city grow in the long term, especially in the downtown area. However, if the price to ride is as low as they say, the streetcar is accessible to all.
-Also, the streetcar helps make the city more marketable for conventions. With only a few hundred rooms around the actual convention center, the streetcar makes it much easier to move large amounts of people from the Capital Hyatt or Westin.
it’s a 3% increase in convention business…which I believe to be low when you are adding a streetcar right in front of the convention center that takes passengers to the Short North, Wexner, Gateway, etc.
Orlando- http://www.cityoforlando.net/planning/transportation/dto-ddc.htm
San Antonio – http://www.viainfo.net/Organization/OrganizationMain.aspx
Kansas City – Light Rail (future)
Las Vegas – http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max/ & http://www.lvmonorail.com/
San Jose – Light Rail, Seasonal trolley
Columbus
Indianapolis – http://www.ibj.com/html/detail_page.asp?content=10869
Virginia Beach/Norfolk – Light Rail (future)
Charlotte – Light Rail
Providence – Commuter Rail
Austin – Light Rail (future)
OK, so Orlando has a proposed light rail system.
San Antonio has “streetcars” that are non-track trolley buses.
Las Vegas has a proposed non-track streamlined automotive “streetcar” bus system proposed, along with a casino-based monorail.
Indianapolis had a proposed, yet vetoed streetcar system.
What am I missing?
That every single city in your example has either implemented or is planning to implement transit that isn’t busing.
That every single city in your example has either implemented or is planning to implement transit that isn’t busing.
I completely agree, and the ones that seem to be functional have light/commuter rail, not just a streetcar system as part of the rail infrastructure. I’d like to see a city the size of Columbus with ONLY a streetcar system that is financially practical.
That every single city in your example has either implemented or is planning to implement transit that isn’t busing.
I completely agree, and the ones that seem to be functional have light/commuter rail, not just a streetcar system as part of the rail infrastructure. I’d like to see a city the size of Columbus with ONLY a streetcar system that is financially practical.
Apparently the term “starter line” is either bypassing your argument entirely, or you’re ignoring that many of those cities that now have comprehensive LRT started with a single line. If you think a single streetcar advocate will argue that what we really need is a complete rail system to service everyone and everywhere, you’d be mistaken…this is what we have though. As far as the financial argument, I lose patience with this pretty quickly. The expenditures on roads I don’t drive on, buses I don’t ride on, but that I pay for…already astronomical. This is a tiny cost in comparison, with a unique and creative funding strategy that doesn’t really affect people who aren’t likely to be using the service in the long run.
So again…you picked 5 cities above and 5 below…all either have transit other than buses or plan transit other than buses…but you want us to be the one in the middle who continues to strictly rely on them?
Maybe we can set our aspirations to meet the economic quagmire of most Ohio cities and simply never take a chance on growth.
Apparently the term “starter line” is either bypassing your argument entirely, or you’re ignoring that many of those cities that now have comprehensive LRT started with a single line. If you think a single streetcar advocate will argue that what we really need is a complete rail system to service everyone and everywhere, you’d be mistaken…this is what we have though. As far as the financial argument, I lose patience with this pretty quickly. The expenditures on roads I don’t drive on, buses I don’t ride on, but that I pay for…already astronomical. This is a tiny cost in comparison, with a unique and creative funding strategy that doesn’t really affect people who aren’t likely to be using the service in the long run.
So again…you picked 5 cities above and 5 below…all either have transit other than buses or plan transit other than buses…but you want us to be the one in the middle who continues to strictly rely on them?
Maybe we can set our aspirations to meet the economic quagmire of most Ohio cities and simply never take a chance on growth.
I have no problem with rail, I think it’s great, but you’ve got to put together a rail system in a matter that makes sense, Columbus wants to find a way to get people around downtown without cars, but you’ve got to get people downtown without cars first. If you still need a car to get downtown, you’re going to drive and park where you want to go, instead of paying to drive downtown, paying to park somewhere other than where you want to go and then paying to use a streetcar. There is no way that people living on the line and hotel-goers and going to be able to financially support the entire line, you need Central Ohioans to be a core segment of your ridership and that’s not going to happen as long as driving is still more cost effective and time-saving.
My problem continues to be this;
With a streetcar system only do I:
1. Drive my car downtown ($), park near the attraction ($), and walk in.
2. Drive my car downtown ($), park somewhere distant to where I want to go ($), ride the trolley ($ + extra time), see the attraction, ride the trolley back to my car (extra time, possibly money).
It would be great to think that people are just going to go and park on the streetcar line and travel up and down all day buying goodies and seeing the sites, but I simply don’t see that happening. The overwhelming majority of people going downtown have one, maybe two stops to see (or want to take a walk around Short North which means parking in on one place and walking) and since they simply drive and park, with parking being about as much as a streetcar ticket would cost, there’s no benefit, in my opinion for streetcars. The only benefit would be for those living immediately on the line or “tourists” staying downtown. I don’t see how that population alone can support such an expensive system.
Now, if you look at the other cities, a light/commuter rail changes the whole scenario. Now you have two options.
1. Drive downtown ($), park ($)
2. Ride downtown on commuter/light rail ($)
Now that you’re able to get people downtown, and save them time and potentially money, there’s a perfect place for a streetcar system, because now you have people going downtown who won’t have their cars to get them around. In this scenario, after you’ve found a way for large amounts of people to get downtown via mass transit, streetcars make sense, but not when it will continue to be easier, more convenient and probably cheaper for people to just drive where they want to go and park there.
I’m not against rail, I’m all for it, but a streetcar system is the final piece of a rail transit system, not the first. Again, if someone can show me a situation where that’s not the case, I’d love to see it. I’m sorry that you feel that you’re not getting anything out of your road taxes, but metro Columbus has 1.6 million people or so and only a tiny fraction would gain any direct benefit from money going to a streetcar system, whereas nearly everyone uses the roads at some point in time. I think the “road tax unfairness” argument is a tough one for most Central Ohioans to handle.
http://gulliver.trb.org/conferences/2003LRTcfp.pdf
“Experience, Economics & Evolution – From Starter Lines To Growing Systems”
Again…we tried to pass a comprehensive light rail, it didn’t go…this is a starter line.
This, then, is the fundamental point where we disagree.
Did Memphis, Charlotte, and Portland all have suburban commuter rail before getting their streetcar lines? Did Kenosha, WI?
For that matter, what cities are you referring to where streetcars came after commuter rail? Many cities (including Columbus) had streetcars generations ago and removed them.
Did Memphis, Charlotte, and Portland all have suburban commuter rail before getting their streetcar lines? Did Kenosha, WI?
Portland had the MAX light rail long before they had a streetcar.
I remember visiting after they built it and it was something of a local joke.
I’m not against rail, I’m all for it, but a streetcar system is the final piece of a rail transit system, not the first. Again, if someone can show me a situation where that’s not the case, I’d love to see it.
+1
The Houston light rail line goes from the south end of their I610 loop through what they call “Midtown” and just north of their downtown (around 7.5 mi) has 45000 boardings a day. To me this is pretty impressive, considering how much people love their cars there.. FYI Houston LR is a MAX “like” system built with stations and along existing roadway.