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COLUMBUS City Council meeting – Streetcars to get public hearing next week
Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:06 AM
By Robert Vitale
Columbus City Council members complained last week that they’ve been left out of the loop on Mayor Michael B. Coleman’s streetcar plan.
Last night, they made the loop bigger.
The council will host its first public hearing next week on the $103 million proposal to build a 2.8-mile rail line between Downtown and Ohio State University. The council’s decision came in an impromptu debate at the end of the weekly meeting.
The day and time haven’t been firmed up, but Councilwoman Maryellen O’Shaughnessy said she wants the session to take place before the council votes on Coleman’s proposed 2008 capital budget.
That budget, which includes a $2 million request to begin design and engineering work for the streetcar line, is scheduled for council action on May 5.
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Streetcars to get public hearing next week
By: lazyfish
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Just so I’m clear on the argument here…
1. We recognize that 22 streetcars were built, and 22 cities saw development such as:
* Little Rock, Arkansas (pop. 184,000) implemented a new system in 2004. $200 Million in direct development has been generated to date. Currently, 118,000 people ride the modern streetcar in Little Rock a year.
* Tampa, Florida (pop. 326,000) implemented a new system in 2003. $1 Billion in direct redevelopment has been generated to date. Currently, 434,500 people ride the modern streetcar in Tampa a year.
* Portland, Oregon (pop. 556,000) implemented a new system in 2001. $2.2 Billion in direct redevelopment has been generated to date. Since the streetcar was implemented, mass transit rider ship has increased 87%.
2. 22 successes and no failures is no indication that it would work here.
3. 22 cases where these development surges have happened were coincidences.
Now, we as detractors have no evidence that contradicts the various cities and their claims that the development was a result of the streetcar, nor do we have any evidence that Columbus would be the first city to fail at the streetcar (other than flaming boats, chinese antiquity shows, and floral festivals)…but we’re sure these reports exist, and even if they don’t we’re sure they should exist and prove us right.
Yep, we’re the koolaid drinkers with no rational arguments…
Goodness. To me, this kind of statement detracts from any validity your arguments may have had because it gives away your over-arching attitude that it’s streetcar or nothing. I think this is what some of us are referring to when we talk about the attitude towards the anti-streetcar folks. We’re tagged as “out of it” in some way, or just completely off our rocker. None of our questions or concerns are considered legitimate. I feel like we’re being played like children, being told to shut up because the grown-ups know what they’re talking about.
Careful, someone may call YOU a crazy old coot someday.
Can I politely recommend remedial reading for context?
My comment had nothing to do with his position on the streetcars, but his yearning for the Sensenbrenner days and his ‘vision’ thing.
A.
If you find one, by all means put it forward; however, the whole point is that you can’t hold that card in reserve. If you want to consider other options, then by all means put them on the table.
That’s what I was leaving up for discussion… I don’t personally have all of the answers and neither does anyone else.
As you and BCOZ and others have noted, the best information available is never perfect when it’s about the future, but if you let that stop you, you’d never do anything because no one will have perfect information about the future.
Let me just say one last time: I am pro-streetcar. That said, I want it to be the best it can be, so that means I’m anti-right now.
Thusly, I’m being skeptical of the data put before me and looking at things from a different perspective to make sure all of the bases are covered, so there are no surprises. I don’t like the idea of rushing things a) just to get them done and b) to reach some silly celebratory mark. The way I operate in business is the same way that I think this issue needs to be tackled: do it right or don’t do it at all.
Bottom line, I think there is much more at stake for the CC and the mayor than people realize with this whole idea. If it is anything less than a smashing success, the public will see it as a “failure.” Just listening to the public’s anti-streetcar comments right now is enough to understand what’s going on.
Are they ill-informed? For the most part. But that doesn’t stop the flood of comments from people saying, “don’t waste my money” and “it needs to include the suburbs.” Not to mention those that are so opposed to it that they’ve called it “Coleman’s new toy.” I don’t really forsee any way to change their minds, even if you did give them all of the information. You could, however, wear them down to the point where they won’t care anymore.
I don’t want to even imagine what they’ll say if the streetcar is rushed and isn’t the glowing success that the city, the mayor and the economic estimates are touting.
3. 22 cases where these development surges have happened were coincidences.
It’s not at all that it was just coincidence, its that there is another variable causing the development. A city obviously isn’t going to put something like a streetcar in a crappy area that people don’t already use. They are going to put it in the area where there are already people and development happening. To say that the streetcar caused the development is likely false, there are other variables that are part of why the streetcar was located there that cause the development.
everything i needed to know about urban planning i learned from simcity ;p
if you replace your roads with all rail… people complain ENDLESSLY about there needing to be more roads, but anything that touches the route blossoms quite a bit.
(hehe i know there’s more to life than this, and maybe this was a fault in the logic of the game, but still)
3. 22 cases where these development surges have happened were coincidences.
It’s not at all that it was just coincidence, its that there is another variable causing the development. A city obviously isn’t going to put something like a streetcar in a crappy area that people don’t already use. They are going to put it in the area where there are already people and development happening. To say that the streetcar caused the development is likely false, there are other variables that are part of why the streetcar was located there that cause the development.
So you’re seriously saying that 100% of the development that materialized with the streetcar would have materialized without it?
Or are you just saying that some percentage larger than 0% of the development that materialized with the streetcar would have materialized without it?
I’m willing to take the second on faith. If you really want me to believe the first, you’re going to have to identify those other variables and identify how you tease apart the influences to establish streetcars as a non-factor.
3. 22 cases where these development surges have happened were coincidences.
It’s not at all that it was just coincidence, its that there is another variable causing the development. A city obviously isn’t going to put something like a streetcar in a crappy area that people don’t already use. They are going to put it in the area where there are already people and development happening. To say that the streetcar caused the development is likely false, there are other variables that are part of why the streetcar was located there that cause the development. Why are you even posting on here. Go back to Missoui.
http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?p=436319
3. 22 cases where these development surges have happened were coincidences.
It’s not at all that it was just coincidence, its that there is another variable causing the development. A city obviously isn’t going to put something like a streetcar in a crappy area that people don’t already use. They are going to put it in the area where there are already people and development happening. To say that the streetcar caused the development is likely false, there are other variables that are part of why the streetcar was located there that cause the development.
So you’re seriously saying that 100% of the development that materialized with the streetcar would have materialized without it?
Or are you just saying that some percentage larger than 0% of the development that materialized with the streetcar would have materialized without it?
I’m willing to take the second on faith. If you really want me to believe the first, you’re going to have to identify those other variables and identify how you tease apart the influences to establish streetcars as a non-factor.
No certainly it can cause some development. But it is not the cause of all of the development by any means, the fact that the area is deemed deserving of a streetcar in itself says that it is prime land for development with or without it.
3. 22 cases where these development surges have happened were coincidences.
It’s not at all that it was just coincidence, its that there is another variable causing the development. A city obviously isn’t going to put something like a streetcar in a crappy area that people don’t already use. They are going to put it in the area where there are already people and development happening. To say that the streetcar caused the development is likely false, there are other variables that are part of why the streetcar was located there that cause the development. Why are you even posting on here. Go back to Missoui.
http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?p=436319
Because I’m from Columbus? Sorry my views aren’t the same as yours, guess I can’t post here anymore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n03u7iH6b0
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2242349805856082713&hl=en
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1583257391998626297&hl=en
You can build garages downtown and on third and fourth.
We already have garages Downtown that get no loving after 5. Alright, time to block off High St. :D
3. 22 cases where these development surges have happened were coincidences.
It’s not at all that it was just coincidence, its that there is another variable causing the development. A city obviously isn’t going to put something like a streetcar in a crappy area that people don’t already use. They are going to put it in the area where there are already people and development happening. To say that the streetcar caused the development is likely false, there are other variables that are part of why the streetcar was located there that cause the development. Why are you even posting on here. Go back to Missoui.
http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?p=436319
Also, what does my post on Cyburbia have to do with anything? In fact in that post I say I would love for something like this work, especially a light rail system in Columbus. I just have my doubts about it.
3. 22 cases where these development surges have happened were coincidences.
It’s not at all that it was just coincidence, its that there is another variable causing the development. A city obviously isn’t going to put something like a streetcar in a crappy area that people don’t already use. They are going to put it in the area where there are already people and development happening. To say that the streetcar caused the development is likely false, there are other variables that are part of why the streetcar was located there that cause the development. Why are you even posting on here. Go back to Missoui.
http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?p=436319
Also, what does my post on Cyburbia have to do with anything? In fact in that post I say I would love for something like this work, especially a light rail system in Columbus. I just have my doubts about it. If you listened to Mayor Coleman last night, this is a first step to a more comprehensive system; including light rail!
3. 22 cases where these development surges have happened were coincidences.
It’s not at all that it was just coincidence, its that there is another variable causing the development. A city obviously isn’t going to put something like a streetcar in a crappy area that people don’t already use. They are going to put it in the area where there are already people and development happening. To say that the streetcar caused the development is likely false, there are other variables that are part of why the streetcar was located there that cause the development. Why are you even posting on here. Go back to Missoui.
http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?p=436319
Also, what does my post on Cyburbia have to do with anything? In fact in that post I say I would love for something like this work, especially a light rail system in Columbus. I just have my doubts about it. If you listened to Mayor Coleman last night, this is a first step to a more comprehensive system; including light rail!
If all of that happens, great! I will be very happy and will be the first to say that my doubts were wrong. I’ve got no problem being wrong because the idea of better public transit in Columbus is something I support. It is needed.
That doesn’t take away the fact that I have doubts about it. Hopefully it happens and I am proven wrong.
1. We recognize that 22 streetcars were built, and 22 cities saw development…
No, I would change that to, “we recognize that 22 streetcars were built to accommodate for various, city-specific development in 22 cities across the country. They were built as a part of each city’s economic development.”
2. 22 successes and no failures is no indication that it would work here.
Twenty-two successes and no failures, according to sales pitches from pro-streetcar working groups, are no indication that it would reach the goals set forth by the estimates that are based on assumptions.
3. 22 cases where these development surges have happened were coincidences.
Twenty-two cases where these development “surges” have happened occurred in better economic times with many variables that may or may not exist in our city. Streetcars were implemented as a part of that economic upswing.
Now, we as detractors have no evidence that contradicts the various cities and their claims that the development was a result of the streetcar,
I would say that pro-streetcar groups have no real evidence, other than assumptions, that actually support the various cities and their claims that the development was a result of the streetcar. Again, the answer to which came first, the chicken or the egg, has yet to be established.
nor do we have any evidence that Columbus would be the first city to fail at the streetcar (other than flaming boats, chinese antiquity shows, and floral festivals)…but we’re sure these reports exist, and even if they don’t we’re sure they should exist and prove us right.
Hey hey hey… unfair. Cincy certainly has a leg up on us on the whole “first city to fail at the streetcar” race :wink:
Even if the numbers we hit aren’t what we anticipated and our own goals aren’t met, or it we hurt our independent shops along high street, all of that will be glossed over and we’ll be included in another pro-streetcar group’s “study” as an example of a success.
That doesn’t take away the fact that I have doubts about it. Hopefully it happens and I am proven wrong. And this is a forum discussing a council meeting that funding was going to be allocated for a STUDY
And this is where you lose me all together…
You argue that the only evidence that exists is tainted…because it supports our position…
You disagree with our position based on no evidence whatsoever other than literal guesses such as “other factors caused the development” even though you can’t cite those factors, can’t show a single source affirming it.
So again, in conclusion…all the evidence in support of streetcars is fabricated, and although there is no evidence against them I’m sure that I’m right.
For example:
Talk about predicting the future…
3. 22 cases where these development surges have happened were coincidences.
It’s not at all that it was just coincidence, its that there is another variable causing the development. A city obviously isn’t going to put something like a streetcar in a crappy area that people don’t already use. They are going to put it in the area where there are already people and development happening. To say that the streetcar caused the development is likely false, there are other variables that are part of why the streetcar was located there that cause the development. Why are you even posting on here. Go back to Missoui.
http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?p=436319
Because I’m from Columbus? Sorry my views aren’t the same as yours, guess I can’t post here anymore.
i obviously don’t agree w. you – but post away. if everyone agreed this post would have died on pg. 2
I’d say that “crazy old coot” was a hell of lot more eloquent and persuasive than you or I were.
I went to last nights meeting against the street car but with an open mind. I asked questions that I thought, if answered, could ease my mind a bit and win me over. I went being primarily worried that the estimation of two years was wishful thinking and that, like any city construction project, would take far longer. I left being completely opposed and realizing that the mayor is so hell bent on meeting a deadline the wake of failed businesses doesn’t matter. We don’t matter. Niki and I don’t matter. Sole Classics, Collier West, Rowe, Ivy Hill, Fibres…. If we go in to bankruptcy, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t matter to the city. We’ll be replaced by others that will provide the same tax revenue. Even if those others are Gap, Banana Republic and Old Navy.
I went to last nights meeting against the street car but with an open mind. I asked questions that I thought, if answered, could ease my mind a bit and win me over. I went being primarily worried that the estimation of two years was wishful thinking and that, like any city construction project, would take far longer. I left being completely opposed and realizing that the mayor is so hell bent on meeting a deadline the wake of failed businesses doesn’t matter. We don’t matter. Niki and I don’t matter. Sole Classics, Collier West, Rowe, Ivy Hill, Fibres…. If we go in to bankruptcy, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t matter to the city. We’ll be replaced by others that will provide the same tax revenue. Even if those others are Gap, Banana Republic and Old Navy. Yeah, I watched this dude Josh Quinn give some very eloquent testimony also :lol: Nice Job.
Edit: Keep us updated if they get you answers
.
(I hate to elide your other comments about exactly what businesses to be part of the end and it deserves fuller and better consideration I agree. )
“Crazy old coot” was not a serious argument and was augmented with an actual argument.
He was not persuasive, regardless of his take on streetcars. The ‘we need a VISION before starting streetcars’ is a non-argument. I keep saying over and over – we’ve got a plethora of visions and city planning is about all of them, not one unified field.
The ‘crazy old coot’ was about his romanticizing Sensenbrenner. That nostalgia is unrealistic (a nice way of saying crazy) as that era of politics is long over.
A.