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COLUMBUS City Council meeting – Streetcars to get public hearing next week
Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:06 AM
By Robert Vitale
Columbus City Council members complained last week that they’ve been left out of the loop on Mayor Michael B. Coleman’s streetcar plan.
Last night, they made the loop bigger.
The council will host its first public hearing next week on the $103 million proposal to build a 2.8-mile rail line between Downtown and Ohio State University. The council’s decision came in an impromptu debate at the end of the weekly meeting.
The day and time haven’t been firmed up, but Councilwoman Maryellen O’Shaughnessy said she wants the session to take place before the council votes on Coleman’s proposed 2008 capital budget.
That budget, which includes a $2 million request to begin design and engineering work for the streetcar line, is scheduled for council action on May 5.
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Streetcars to get public hearing next week
By: lazyfish
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Isn’t that what everyone aspires to be when they are old? :)
Sure, and that is why I think City Council should definitely move forward wtih the engineering plan study so more of these questions can be answered and a well-informed decision can be made.
I was sitting in front of that “crazy coot”, or “old gentleman”, or whatever you want to call him. I’ll just call him completely unprofessional and disrespectful.
He, and Robert Weiler (developer of Polaris and COTA board member) were openly mocking every speaker who was supportive of the streetcar from the Mayor to the Councilmembers on down to the OSU students. I’m sure people give them the benefit of the doubt because they’re over 100 years old, but that doesn’t give them a right to be a total asshat to everyone who disagrees with them.
Breaking News: The Streetcar Murders People!
Just stumbled upon this story in my feed reader. I think 10TV used the wrong photo in their story at first. It’s already updated on their website, but the clipping in my feeds was too hilarious not to take a screenshot of:
For the streetcar supporters, were there ANY comments that were not in support of the streetcar that you felt were rational and thought out and raised a good point or were thay all “wackos” and ill-informed people?
…
There were several arguments that the streetcar did not encompass a large enough area, or reach all the citizens it needed to in order for it to be a viable transportation alternative. I don’t think you’ll find too many supporters who wouldn’t back a larger plan of mass transit.
Others argued passionately that COTA service should be augmented before a streetcar is built. Again, I don’t think any pro-streetcar people would be against this idea. As AH stated earlier, there is currently a flaw in the communication that starting the streetcar doesn’t mean the improvements from the COTA levy won’t go through.
I also think a Mag-lev train would be an awesome idea between the 3-Cs.
Otherwise, I didn’t find the counter arguments too compelling and wasn’t swayed from my opinion that the streetcar is a way to start intermodal mass rail transit in Ohio while boosting development in the benefit zone.
Like what, for instance?
Light rail would cost 1000% more than the streetcar (minimum) and has already been proposed and voted down. The streetcar will be able to dovetail into a future light rail network by providing the last-mile service that would have been lacking had the previous light rail proposal been approved.
Why is a grand vision necessary for streetcars but not for highway projects? Or a new courthouse? Or increased police presence?
There is no grand vision for the streetcar system because it’s only an incremental improvement. All a “grand vision” would add is a great deal more bombastic rhetoric.
A few of my observations from the city council meeting last night (and a few of my thoughts on the arguments of the opposition):
1. I left feeling rather encouraged by the fact that I didn’t hear any strong, persuasive arguments against the streetcar project. Some of the opponents raised some valid concerns, but no show-stoppers.
2. I was surprised to see how many people expressed criticism of the mayor for leaving after his opening comments and the initial presentations. It seems that they didn’t understand that this was a hearing for city council and not the mayor. In my view, the mayor has done a great job of soliciting public input on this project through many different avenues. Last night’s forum was never intended to be an opportunity for the public to address the mayor. Also, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if the council members might have actually preferred to hear from the public apart from the presence of the project champion.
3. One of the themes among the opposition was that the city is facing a budget crunch, while at the same time there are many needs (new sidewalks, more police officers, basic services, parks, etc.).
Will there ever be a time when people are not clamoring for more police officers? Never. Also, the streetcar project is an investment that will generate much more tax revenue for the city. By investing in the streetcar line, we will end up with way more revenue to spend on all of these basic needs than if we invested the streetcar money directly. I loved the way one proponent summarized this by explaining that the streetcar project is actually and economic development project that happens to have a public transportation benefit. That was a great way of putting it.
4. One of the other themes was that the streetcar does not serve the entire region.
Once again, we all agree that we need a system that serves the entire region, but we have to start small – the streetcar project is the first step toward that goal. The mayor emphasized this before the meeting. Why is this so difficult a concept to grasp???
5. One last theme was that we don’t have a vision for the city.
While I tend to disagree with this observation, I can’t imagine any vision that would not include rail-based public transportation, to which the streetcar project is the first step.
6. While the majority of people opposed the streetcar, that majority also appeared to include a subset of people who probably show up at most city council hearings to complain and oppose anything new and progressive that the city might try to do.
There were definitely some very articulate people people both for and against the project and it was definitely very interesting hearing from all of them.
Aside : It was City Council’s special session, not the Mayor’s. Criticizing his departure is unfair, irrelevant and demeaning to CC.
You say ‘older gentleman.’ I’d say crazy old coot who spoke wistfully of the Sensenbrenner years. Long gone are the days when a strongman and a smoked-filled room set the agenda. It is naive to think of a city as diverse as Columbus to have ‘a vision.’ There already are and will continual to be a huge amount of visions and big-picture goals. The real discussion is not that silliness, but the nuts-and-bolts of technicalities and negotations to try to fulfill as many of those goals as possible. The streetcar (and further transportation planning) is one of the bolts.
A.
Andrew, Habitual contempt doesn’t reflect a finer sensibility. Amen!
This discussion has devolved into a world class pissing match, anyone bring the kiddie pool and the rubber boots? Until the street car advocates on CU can figure out how to have a civil discourse, your chances of convincing the unwashed majority are slight, is this another sign of your elitism…”trust us we know best…you fools are too stupid to believe our pro-street car rhetoric”…..22-0 is by far the dumbest analogy yet….yeah we get it, the bandwagon effect, it worked for others (so did waterfire…ooopps), well atleast according to the surveys you site….sadly surveys that point out the fallacy of these massive expenditures do not get public financing from pols looking for panceas…usually it is some grad student or cranky prof who 10-15 years after construction, crunches the #’s and viola it ain’t all that it was cracked up to be…then begins the inevitable rationalizations….weren’t the New England Patriots undefeated 18-0 earlier this year and then the wheels came off….here ends my contribution to the piss party, enjoy the golden splendor.
The route will back off more nay sayers by accessing more people, only taking one lane on high st.(making room for a bike lane), and widening the benefit zone.
The problem is that depending if you want to go north/south you have to walk from High to Neil. Planners follow the 1/4 mile rule meaning that pedestrians will walk up to 1/4 mile to a transit stop and walking from Neil to High north of Goodale is over 1/3 mile, but it would serve a wider area, so in the end will that result in more foot traffic? You’d have to subtract riders on High who want to go north, but would have to walk over to Neil. Also consider if you were visiting and you walk out of the Convention Center. For them this route would be easy. If they wanted to take the streetcar to the middle of the Short North, well, it would be easier to walk.
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I think a two-way version of this that did a large loop on Neil would be great, but it’s the $ and making it two-way could come later. As for me, I’d love either one, since biking 1/4 or 1/3 of a mile is nothing, while biking to anywhere this line goes isn’t much a problem for me personally. I’d be using it when it’s really cold/hot.
Wow, Columbus is a cowtown after all. My bad.
Like I said I was on the fence before and after attending the meeting and hearing the presentation I can’t support the project in good conscience.
They didn’t clearly frame the problem that was being solved by the streetcar in the first place leaving one to conclude there is no problem being solved other than the need for “economic development”.
I wish I could drink the kool-aid and join the cult of the street car. I live right on High St. in the SN and would stand to gain a lot should they implement the street car. Mostly gain a lot of weight because perhaps I would forgo walking or riding my bike in favor of the street car.
No kidding. I came home from the meeting last night and started looking for jobs in other cities.
Better parking will do a hell of a lot more for those areas than anything else.
Tell me that the city wants to spend $110M on municipal parking structures and I’m on board 100%
Talk about out of touch, that is a horrible idea. Let’s encourage more car traffic in these areas. Put in more bike parking, we already have more than enough cars on the road. Car infrastructure is ugly and wastes lots of space that could be used for developments that puts humans first like more places to go or live. Hey, I have an idea. Parking on Grandview can be a pain sometimes. Let’s tear down Stauf’s and Jenis for parking. See? It’s stupid. Just like adding a parking garage in the Short North to guarantee more traffic. Just think of future gallery hops.
This discussion has devolved into a world class pissing match, anyone bring the kiddie pool and the rubber boots? Until the street car advocates on CU can figure out how to have a civil discourse, your chances of convincing the unwashed majority are slight, is this another sign of your elitism…”trust us we know best…you fools are too stupid to believe our pro-street car rhetoric”…..22-0 is by far the dumbest analogy yet….yeah we get it, the bandwagon effect, it worked for others (so did waterfire…ooopps), well atleast according to the surveys you site….sadly surveys that point out the fallacy of these massive expenditures do not get public financing from pols looking for panceas…usually it is some grad student or cranky prof who 10-15 years after construction, crunches the #’s and viola it ain’t all that it was cracked up to be…then begins the inevitable rationalizations….weren’t the New England Patriots undefeated 18-0 earlier this year and then the wheels came off….here ends my contribution to the piss party, enjoy the golden splendor.
That was an awful lot of typing to make absolutely no point whatsoever. You did get to use the word “panaceas” though, even if misspelled.
I was just in Granville this past weekend and really loved the large sidewalks and patios it afforded.
How awesome would it be to make High pedestrian only north of Goodale, vastly increase the size of the sidewalks so that only two lanes exist on High Street. Have one lane for streetcars and the other for bike lanes.
Does anyone have a link to specific economic studies? I know that all the pro-streetcar people are saying that they work 22 times out of 22 in sparking economic development and I was hoping to have a look at those studies. I’ve seen the economic study done for Columbus, I’m more looking for the studies done on other cities and the impact.
I have a feeling that part of those studies doesn’t take into consideration well enough which came first, the economic development or the streetcar. Obviously you want to put the streetcar in a good location that already has been somewhat developed, so doesn’t it seem to reason that development would continue in that area with or without the added streetcar. I’m not saying that it would have no impact, but to attribute the entire impact to the streetcar is far from the truth.
^It wouldn’t take long for me to get used to that.
How awesome would it be to make High pedestrian only north of Goodale, vastly increase the size of the sidewalks so that only two lanes exist on High Street. Have one lane for streetcars and the other for bike lanes.
All I have to say is pipe dream. There is no way that would ever happen, there would be a huge public outcry. I can’t imagine businesses in the area would support that either considering it limits who can drive by their business. That certainly wouldn’t help with economic development, it would likely hurt.
I have a feeling that part of those studies doesn’t take into consideration well enough which came first, the economic development or the streetcar. Obviously you want to put the streetcar in a good location that already has been somewhat developed, so doesn’t it seem to reason that development would continue in that area with or without the added streetcar. I’m not saying that it would have no impact, but to attribute the entire impact to the streetcar is far from the truth.
I have been saying this for a long time, but no one here wants to listen. But, you can try it again if you want :)
I have seen those studies and they do not really answer the “which came first, the chicken or the egg” question. They briefly touch on it, but it’s hard to say either way. The sales pitch, er, I mean, studies all seem to want to say the development followed the streetcar route.
In Portland, they put together a streetcar proposal years before they even broke ground. A lot can happen and in the areas that they considered putting the streetcar, a lot of development occured. Then the streetcar really came around in conjunction with that development. So, who’s to say what caused what, really. Was it in the right place at the right time, or did developers say, “let’s build up this area because there might possibly be a streetcar here soon.” If you interview them now, their 20/20 hindsight will say, “we saw the streetcar coming and decided it would be a good investment.” If you interviewed them at the time they actually developed, who knows what they would have said.
Really, the development could have been from a completely different variable that we don’t offer here in Columbus. If that’s the case, we need to find out what that variable is.
If you find one, by all means put it forward; however, the whole point is that you can’t hold that card in reserve. If you want to consider other options, then by all means put them on the table.
greenhouse at least did that with respect to additional busing. I think that the evidence is fairly solid that developers don’t consider buses to represent the same kind of binding institutional commitment that a rail line does, whether streetcar or something more ambitious, but the whole point is that at least we can talk about it when we have something specific to talk about. (Note that I’m not against busing additional routes and hours, but I’ve seen much less evidence to suggest that a bus running at 2:00 a.m. is as economically beneficial as a streetcar running during lunch and prime time.)
I’m willing to listen to other evidence, but right now, I know of no other public initiative in those other cities (at least with respect to things that they’re doing and we’re not–obviously keeping stores from burning down is important, but no one’s saying disband the fire department to free up money for streetcars) that more closely correlates with their economic development than the streetcar line. Until then, I have to go with the best information available. As you and BCOZ and others have noted, the best information available is never perfect when it’s about the future, but if you let that stop you, you’d never do anything because no one will have perfect information about the future.
Yeah, all the pedestrian only streets I’ve been on don’t have anyone on them and the businesses are hurting. Please see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n03u7iH6b0
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2242349805856082713&hl=en
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1583257391998626297&hl=en
You can build garages downtown and on third and fourth.