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COLUMBUS City Council meeting – Streetcars to get public hearing next week
Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:06 AM
By Robert Vitale
Columbus City Council members complained last week that they’ve been left out of the loop on Mayor Michael B. Coleman’s streetcar plan.
Last night, they made the loop bigger.
The council will host its first public hearing next week on the $103 million proposal to build a 2.8-mile rail line between Downtown and Ohio State University. The council’s decision came in an impromptu debate at the end of the weekly meeting.
The day and time haven’t been firmed up, but Councilwoman Maryellen O’Shaughnessy said she wants the session to take place before the council votes on Coleman’s proposed 2008 capital budget.
That budget, which includes a $2 million request to begin design and engineering work for the streetcar line, is scheduled for council action on May 5.
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Streetcars to get public hearing next week
By: lazyfish
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I listened to the report on the streetcar meeting on NPR this morning. I was mildly bummed out. Sounds like there were a lot of anti street car people there and that was the drift of the report.
Thanks to Andrew Hall for going and supporting the streetcars and everyone else that attended (I did not – sorry).
Most of what I heard in the report indicated many people that were anti street car had major concerns about how it would be funded no so much the streetcars themselves. They were concerns the money would take away from getting more police, street repairs, etc.
So – if a way to fund streetcars can be devised that does not take money from other tax revenues – more people will buy in….right?
Any ideas to make the street cars self financing – private secter donors, a new tax that will not offend the masses, etc?
Again, these are just questions and are in no way meant to be considered argumentative at all.
welcome back. I can’t answer all points definitively, but I would say:
1. the streetcar should not be, nor do i think it is, the only development plan for downtown. The downtown business plan calls for the streetcar as one part of increased transit options. It also includes plans to increase housing downtown (i.e. Gay St Corridor, the new LC development), parks (the Scioto Mile), office incentives (tax incentives), in addition to improving the movement of cars and people (new garages, better COTA service, & streetcars) See:
[url]http://downtowncolumbus.com/development/downtownBusinessPlan.php[/url]
2. I am not aware of any businesses that has stated they will move downtown, nor do i know if they have been asked. Evidence does exist of major busineses clustering around transportation hubs (i.e. AT&T in Atlanta). But several local business interests like the downtown hotel and restaurant association have supported it, while other businesses have supported the streetcar but been against the current funding proposal, yet others are against it. The plan also calls for them to seek naming rights to stops, lines, etc… as has been done in other areas. But this has yet to be done as well.
Then you’ve proved other people’s point… this is all about the benefit to you (or lack thereof), not the benefit to the city.
I know I stated that I would personally love to have a streetcar system..and then answered a question by saying that my business would not be affected +/- by it.
I’m not sure how that translates into benefit to me.
Do you know me?
Have we met?
Until you have, I suggest keeping your arguments to the points I am making.
This is very typical of CUers, sadly. No matter how civil your tongue, nor how valid your opinions, if they go against the grain of the majority you will be attacked personally and your words twisted into something way beyond your points.
Notably: when someone said that a bike slowing traffic is annoying, it as morphed into a description of that poster as a sociopath that is intentionally trying to murder bicyclists.
BTW – I still have not heard a good argument for the high st. streetcar..maybe you all should reconsider the “If you don’t like it you’re a big doodie head” argument…it stinks
So – if a way to fund streetcars can be devised that does not take money from other tax revenues – more people will buy in….right?
Any ideas to make the street cars self financing – private secter donors, a new tax that will not offend the masses, etc?
You should take a look at the funding scenarios. I don’t have time to find the reports, but I’m sure they are on here somewhere. :)
I found this part of the meeting frustrating. People that said they appreciated the meeting and had been sitting there listening and then when it was their turn to speak to council, they mentioned how they did not want their tax dollars going to fund it and that the money should be going to other things. They weren’t listening. The streetcar is not getting money from taxes. The proposal is using funds from benefit zone surcharges, parking surcharges, grants, and possibly re-dedicating money from the meters from the benefit zone and other ways.
This funding scenario (besides the existing metered parking and possibly a couple of others) does not use existing funds. If this doesn’t pass for the streetcar, it’s not like there is going to be ‘all of this money’ out there that can be allocated to other things like improving COTA or police.
Hrm? I think now would be a good time to start to think about public transportation
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/29/business/worldbusiness/29oil.html?ref=business
Sorry to debase this thread, but I think there is some good debate about economic development that could be responded to. To further the debate on the subject it’s been asked among other things to provide examples of cities where initial streetcar and LRT lines have failed to yield economic development, or other mechanisms to spur economic development. I know your post wasn’t in response to these questions but to another inciting post. But as I awaited another response to what I perceived was a inaccurate paraphrase of my arguments, it gets a little odd to read:
This is very typical of CUers, sadly. No matter how civil your tongue, nor how valid your opinions, if they go against the grain of the majority you will be attacked personally and your words twisted into something way beyond your points.
Your definition of ‘civil’ tongue is:
and you didn’t twist words when you took:
1. commute to her job at OSU
etc…
into:
to quote yourself:
If you’re discounting the arguments for the streetcar that have been presented here, and in dozens of other cities who have then built them and had them succeed…then you’re not listening.
I’d like to point out that if you’re disagreeing with every single person’s position who’s posted in this thread…there’s only one constant there…
you.
p.s. The transparency of your disingenuous attitude and your completely contradictory arguments makes people a little less anxious to have a rational debate. You demand more evidence than a 100% success rate in 22 cities and our own feasibility study to spend 100 million on a streetcar…but are ready to move ahead today on spending 100 million on parking structures…based on your own opinions…come on.
As far as I understand it, the meters currently go into the general fund. Under the streetcars financing plan, 3.5 million$ annual(I think – it is the large portion of the funding) would be used for the streetcars. That would then a 3.5 mill annual loss to the general fund.
A.
I found this part of the meeting frustrating. People that said they appreciated the meeting and had been sitting there listening and then when it was their turn to speak to council, they mentioned how they did not want their tax dollars going to fund it and that the money should be going to other things. They weren’t listening. The streetcar is not getting money from taxes. The proposal is using funds from benefit zone surcharges, parking surcharges, grants, and possibly re-dedicating money from the meters from the benefit zone and other ways.
Just to help bridge the gap in thinking… I believe what they mean is that the money has to come from somewhere. Sure, they’re not outright, direct taxes, but we’ll end up paying on the back end. So they may not be using the correct terminology, but in their minds: increased parking meters = a tax, increased ticket prices = a tax, other benefit zone surcharges = a tax passed on to the consumer.
So, I think what they’re trying to say is that if it’s possible to raise money by doing those things, then go ahead and do it, but would rather the money be used in other ways.
Another thing of which they might be speaking is that the city is approving the engineering study, which comes from public funds.
I think honestly some people do want to see it happen because they believe it will help our city to develop and grow. There’s nothing dishonest about that. You don’t have to state your own personal use of a system like this in order to be honest.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/29/business/worldbusiness/29oil.html?ref=business
It is interesting to note the full circle here. 70-80 years ago, mass transit in the form of rail lines and major bus lines existed in a multitude of urban cities, many here in Ohio and our own city, that has fallen out of use since. These systems existed when the car culture was priced too high to be available to the average citizen. As oil became more readily available, technology improved and our economy strengthened, cars became available and mass transit either became endangered or outright extinct. Look at the demise of the interurban lines that ran all through Ohio.
I think it’s remarkable to see this reversing. Mass transit is becoming an option to combat the rise in expense for car ownership.
If you’re discounting the arguments for the streetcar that have been presented here, and in dozens of other cities who have then built them and had them succeed…then you’re not listening.
I’d like to point out that if you’re disagreeing with every single person’s position who’s posted in this thread…there’s only one constant there…
you.
Hey… I’m still here :) Besides, it’s very, very interesting to me to see how pro-streetcar CU is, and then read the anti-comments from the Dispatch and most of the public.
You demand more evidence than a 100% success rate in 22 cities and our own feasibility study to spend 100 million on a streetcar…but are ready to move ahead today on spending 100 million on parking structures…based on your own opinions…come on.
Yeah… about that/those studies… I’m still having problems with it, personally. I still feel like it’s a big sales pitch, which is what’s made me skeptical. Not saying I necessarily disagree with any of it, it’s very hard to, but I am saying that the feasibility study could have inserted the words “Boondangle, Arkansas” in it, and Boondangle would be clamoring for it.
My point is, the “feasibility study” is nothing more than a sales pitch. Every report and study I’ve ever read has been based on one report from Portland. So you can’t really say, “there are all of these reports” when they can all be traced back to only one source.
So, yes, I’m skeptical of the numbers, estimates and assumptions made. Not saying they can’t happen and won’t, just saying there’s a possibility they can’t and won’t. And if that possibility exists, what would need to happen for the streetcar to be a success?
Repost from earlier As I view other cities plans like Cincy’s, I wonder why Columbus’s version is concentrating two way streetcars on high instead of a one way loop system? (Example: OSU south on high to courthouse up front st. to nationwide, north on Neil back to OSU route)
The route will back off more nay sayers by accessing more people, only taking one lane on high st.(making room for a bike lane), and widening the benefit zone.
More questions.
If not from taxes, where does the share of the city’s money come from? What funds the fund that the city’s share of this thing come from? If I’m not mistaken, and please correct me if I am, the money from the newly increased meters is going to be diverted from the general fund into the streetcar. If this is true, what other city functions draw from this pool and how will they be affected by this money being pulled?
Operations. Does the private sector money cover operation as well as construction and development? If so, do we expect the business sector to pony up cash each time the donor commitments expire? What’s the plan once those businesses are either tapped out or the economy bars their giving? Are we looking at a streetcar tax? If so, do we only pay the streetcar tax if we live in a “benefit zone”? I know, roads get payed for, but that’s a general fund that covers ALL roads and we all use a road or two somewhere along the line. This is a specifically targeted effort, so I’m not buying the “we pay for roads” argument. Roadways do a lot to support the economy all the way from local to national. Oh, and the 70/71 split? Think of it this way, for teh green folks. Once that awful split is fixed, less fuel will be consumed by people sitting in running cars waiting for the car in front of them to move.
Development. Would it really be that terrible for a streetcar needs assessment or are the streetcar folks concerned that it would negate the streetcar? I mean, is the streetcar the ONLY option for downtown development? As I hear some of you, the whole issue HINGES on the streetcar. If it IS the ONLY option, it’ll really suck if the streetcar gets killed. Have we reached out to business to see if our assumptions on the benefits of the streetcar are really there? From what I’m seeing, there’s not a whole lot of enthusiasm out there from business to relocate anywhere, the economy what it is. If we provide extra incentives to get business to move, do we lose out? Most incentives will come from tax breaks (I’m guessing) and that seems the opposite of what we want. Don’t we WANT companies paying taxes? I know the schools do. Look at what Nationwide had to deal with over the Arena District.
Housing. There seem to be a lot of empty condos downtown, with more going up all the time. What do we do to attract people to live downtown besides the lure of a railcar, which would seem more an amenity than a requirement. In my opinion, downtown residency is hampered by other factors including the cost of a downtown condo, I can’t go around the corner to grab something to eat, there’s really nothing after 5pm downtown except for a show or a game, and don’t even get me started on groceries. In NYC, besides the cost of course, it’s pretty easy to live downtown. You’ve got places you can eat, small market stores I can get some food, plenty of entertainment options…
I haven’t drank the streetcar kool-aid yet and will definitely not now.
I was on the fence prior to attending last night’s special meeting. After seeing the presentation (an hour and a half of civic fluff) and observing the mayor’s disappearing act when it came time for listening to public opinion, I’m convinced the streetcar initiative is an ill-thought out vanity project that is being rushed to capture some personal glory for the 2012 celebration.
The project is being sold as an economic development tool, not as a transportation solution that gets people out of their cars. As far as economic development is concerned there are smarter, more innovative and more efficient ways to have impact and get economic returns than the street car proposal in it’s current form. I’ve seen the data from other cities, and believe there are more efficient uses of capital.
If we’re talking about transportation solutions and getting people out of their cars and walking that’s a different story. I do support public transportation and trains. The irony is the streetcar plan is not a transportation solution. It’s a parking solution.
There was no grand vision, no innovation communicated in the street car plan. Do you really trust the guys from COTA to effectively manage and run the street cars? Do you trust them to build a solid financial plan? I don’t.
Another distressing point is regarding the research and data that has been gathered thus far on the economic impact of construction on businesses during construction. Council has no data from other cities on this matter. They haven’t even considered it and again, have no data. Shocking. The Short North is already a growth district without streetcars. No plan has been discussed to work with businesses that will suffer a financial impact. If we want Easton downtown then the streetcar makes sense because some businesses will inevitably not survive making way for chains to set up shop on High Street.
There was an older gentleman who stood up and made a profound statement, which was something to the tune of “this city still doesn’t know what it wants to be or who it is for that matter”. I couldn’t agree more.
Figure out the vision, who and what you want to be and create transportation solutions that are mapped to that vision. Right now there is no vision.
The mayor’s early departure and failure to listen to public opinion leaves me no choice, but to feel that he lacks the poise, vision and confidence to weather public criticism and inspire and persuade opponents to see the streetcar plan through. That or they simply don’t give a damn what the public thinks because they’ve already decided this is a brilliant idea.
We already had a successful urban streetcar system. We just chose to subsidize oil and left our system to peter out. The only downfall of the streetcar system was that it needed money to be run. Saying that putting it back into neighborhoods where it was successful and even created many of said neighborhoods (ie, the neighborhood was built entirely around the streetcar) requires a willful ignorance of the facts, of history. Streetcar-deniers have to pretend we never had such a system and also need to ignore the vast variety of cities that currently have streetcars on top of that. I’ll also add that I have actually ridden a streetcar before and from personal experience recommend it.
There was an older gentleman who stood up and made a profound statement, which was something to the tune of “this city still doesn’t know what it wants to be or who it is for that matter”. I couldn’t agree more.
Figure out the vision, who and what you want to be and create transportation solutions that are mapped to that vision. Right now there is no vision.
The mayor’s early departure and failure to listen to public opinion leaves me no choice, but to feel that he lacks the poise, vision and confidence to weather public criticism and inspire and persuade opponents to see the streetcar plan through. That or they simply don’t give a damn what the public thinks because they’ve already decided this is a brilliant idea.
There are fallacies aplenty in your post, but I just touch one with an aside.
Aside : It was City Council’s special session, not the Mayor’s. Criticizing his departure is unfair, irrelevant and demeaning to CC.
You say ‘older gentleman.’ I’d say crazy old coot who spoke wistfully of the Sensenbrenner years. Long gone are the days when a strongman and a smoked-filled room set the agenda. It is naive to think of a city as diverse as Columbus to have ‘a vision.’ There already are and will continual to be a huge amount of visions and big-picture goals. The real discussion is not that silliness, but the nuts-and-bolts of technicalities and negotations to try to fulfill as many of those goals as possible. The streetcar (and further transportation planning) is one of the bolts.
A.
Sounds like it, doesn’t it? Or it’s all about beating Cincinnati to the punch, i don’t know but it DOES disturb me that the mayor left before he heard all the public comments. Doesn’t he work for US? Could anyone else here walk out on their boss while they were giving their opinion on something? I know he didn’t pull the meeting together, but it surely wasn’t a good look for him to leave. I didn’t make the meeting (Mom had a heart attack. WAAAAY more important), but I would hope that more folks noticed this vanishing act. Even though it may not be so, the perception that the mayor desn’t care what the public has to say goes a lot further than the truth. Nope, not a good look.
For the streetcar supporters, were there ANY comments that were not in support of the streetcar that you felt were rational and thought out and raised a good point or were thay all “wackos” and ill-informed people?
I have to say, it’s kind of nice to seeother people on here questioning teh streetcar. It makes the beating I took a while back worth it, but let me just ask where the hell you all were when I was on the ground? Yes, I went a little Bill Moss a couple times, but damn…
Goodness. To me, this kind of statement detracts from any validity your arguments may have had because it gives away your over-arching attitude that it’s streetcar or nothing. I think this is what some of us are referring to when we talk about the attitude towards the anti-streetcar folks. We’re tagged as “out of it” in some way, or just completely off our rocker. None of our questions or concerns are considered legitimate. I feel like we’re being played like children, being told to shut up because the grown-ups know what they’re talking about.
Careful, someone may call YOU a crazy old coot someday.
Posted on April 29th, 2008
Last week I spoke to Columbus City Council on the topic of the Columbus Streetcar proposal. Yesterday a few dozen other people came out to speak at the public hearing. I guess that makes me a trendsetter, eh? Seriously though, here’s a rough transcript of my address to City Council:
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