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COLUMBUS City Council meeting – Streetcars to get public hearing next week
Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:06 AM
By Robert Vitale
Columbus City Council members complained last week that they’ve been left out of the loop on Mayor Michael B. Coleman’s streetcar plan.
Last night, they made the loop bigger.
The council will host its first public hearing next week on the $103 million proposal to build a 2.8-mile rail line between Downtown and Ohio State University. The council’s decision came in an impromptu debate at the end of the weekly meeting.
The day and time haven’t been firmed up, but Councilwoman Maryellen O’Shaughnessy said she wants the session to take place before the council votes on Coleman’s proposed 2008 capital budget.
That budget, which includes a $2 million request to begin design and engineering work for the streetcar line, is scheduled for council action on May 5.
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Streetcars to get public hearing next week
By: lazyfish
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I realize this is the last thing the streetcar proponents would want: as there is. no. need.
So Columbus does not need economic development?
Exhibit A: Best Case Scenario = Portland. Streetcars equal great success. Ridership is 400% above projections, economic development along route = 2.4 billion.
Exhibit B: Worst Case Scenario = Tampa. Streetcars connected 2 under-populated zones. Ridership has lagged below projections, economic development along route = 1.1 billion.
Unless you plan to win the mega-millions, and spend it all on bar hopping up and down High, I would like to hear your counterplan to stimulate 1 Billion + in economic development. Where else can city council invest $200k, to support a $100m project, that has repeated examples of rewarding the investment ten-fold? Economic development is something Columbus and the state of Ohio desperately needs. Streetcars have consistently, even in worst case scenarios, produced a staggering increase in economic development.
As with Core, I ask that you please show us any contradictory data you have?
A. Nothing like waking up to Andrew Hall whispering in your ear. What a great morning.
Actually you’re right we really don’t need “a streetcar” we need “a streetcar system or some other form of efficient mass transit usable by a majority of the city that is run by electricity and not oil”.
Yes!!!!!! This I can get behind!!!!
Dammit! You were doing so well until then! ;)
I can’t emphasize how much this argument stinks. Predicting the future, no matter how often, how emphatically or however italicized will not make it come true.
If we cannot tangibly show you the future, we should never seek development?
So based on this argument – no capital investments would ever be undertaken.
That is an extremely weak position that would lead to stagnation and eventually decay.
BCOZ, would you feel differently if the starter line was in Grandview? Just wondering if the fear of increased patronage of the SN, which might affect your business, has anything to do with your position. It would be completely understandable….
dru –
I don’t want to get into a pissing match with you….but your “streetcar as economic development” passion does not overcome your post where you said that:
1) You’d definitely use the streetcar to get a coupla pops at the roundbar
and
2) There are a bunch of other stuff you and the wife might possibly use it for….like, you know, commuting and stuff….movies…
This is reality.
Deal with it honestly.
If Columbus NEEDS economic development of any sort, I’m confident there are many better ways to accomplish it than 2 miles of toy train.
When my alarm went off this morning, they were talking about this!!!
I realize this is the last thing the streetcar proponents would want: as there is. no. need.
I’d love to see a Needs Assessment prior to the opening of yet another bar with $10 burgers… who needs another place to watch OSU games, really? And aren’t they just DUI factories? Wouldn’t people just drink in the safety of home if they weren’t around?? Bar food isn’t ‘good for you’, think of the city’s health!!
Alright, so I’m being an ass. Hopefully with a point, though. Need is relative (and never more so than with a watering hole). On one hand we have people crying that we need *more* than just a small streetcar route. Tried that, no? Isn’t this sort of a trojan horse to the same end? OTOH we have those who say we don’t need any streetcar whatsoever. Well… relative to what? Every city that has benefitted from them?
BTW, I was the one who characterized the anti-streetcar folks at the council meeting as ‘wacky’. Did you watch it? :shock:
I just can’t stay away from all you lovely people. Let me just ask a couple questions. Does the administration’s entire development plan for downtown hinge on the rail? What other development efforts are happening either in conjunction with rail efforts or in case the rail doesn’t happen? In my reading of the Danter Report (as the choir of angels sings in the background as I read it), it stated pretty explicitly that there had to be a transportation-oriented development plan put into place for any rail development forecasts to come to fruition. Is the rail just a part of the plan for downtown, or IS it the plan for downtown? Does anyone know if there has been any feelers sent out or any interest shown for business to relocate or build downtown as a result of our rail efforts? Has any business stepped up to show support in the form of saying, yes, we’ll come downtown when the rail is in place?
Again, these are just questions and are in no way meant to be considered argumentative at all.
Again, you’re simply looking at this as an alternative transit system…not an economic initiative, which is what it is.
Do I pin the failings of population and economy in other cities in Ohio on lack of a streetcar? Nope. I do, however, pin them on a lack of forward thinking, reliance on an industrial based economy, and those are things that a streetcar does affect. This is exactly why Cincinnati is doing the same thing we are.
Do I think the areas are underdeveloped because of a lack of a streetcar? Nope. I do, however, believe that streetcars have proven in every single instance to drive economic development surrounding the line. So, instead of worrying about why the area is underdeveloped, I’d prefer to use a proven solution to fix it.
Predicting the future? Nope, I’m doing the exact same thing the city does before it commits to any project it’s ever done. You think the city widens roads, builds new overpasses, or spends a penny without some level of prediction based on study and experience? Again, 22 cities…22 successes…study done for Columbus showing a prediction of similar success…vs. the person truly predicting the future based on nothing but a magic eight ball, which is you.
Now who’s predicting the future. Maybe we should add to our list of anti-streetcar sentiments that it may, in fact, be hijacked by Al Qaeda.
The streetcar doesn’t run to German Village, so that’s kind of an asinine statement as to my personal desire. Additionally, calling it a “big bill” when it’s laid next to every other expenditure in the budget is a little crazy. Most importantly, to assign the “me me me” status to people who support the streetcar is pretty much the opposite of the reality, which is the anti streetcar folks are the “me me me”…and again, the city isn’t footing the “big bill”.
Close.
I would feel differently is the line(s) were more comprehensive to the rest of the city. Hell…even popping a 2 mile cross track on Broad is a HUGELY better idea that just high street. (I’m sure there’s “underdeveloped” areas of Braod, …no?
My business is fine and wouldn’t be affected one way or the other by a streetcar…i’m posting as a citizen/taxpayer.
And not to critcize without benefit: if I had to suggest a solution to any SN\/Campus/GV/IV VV, etc “problems”…I’d start with parking.
Better parking will do a hell of a lot more for those areas than anything else.
Tell me that the city wants to spend $110M on municipal parking structures and I’m on board 100%
I don’t want to get into a pissing match with you….but your “streetcar as economic development” passion does not overcome your post where you said that:
1) You’d definitely use the streetcar to get a coupla pops at the roundbar
and
2) There are a bunch of other stuff you and the wife might possibly use it for….like, you know, commuting and stuff….movies…
This is reality.
Deal with it honestly.
If Columbus NEEDS economic development of any sort, I’m confident there are many better ways to accomplish it than 2 miles of toy train.
2 different arguments – sorry your rant obscures the logic.
1. Big picture – Streetcars have a proven record of economic development in the US and abroad (why build it – i.e. paid construction jobs)
2. Smaller picture – Streetcars also have an impact on day-to-day living that would be practical for both work and leisure pursuits (who would use it and why – i.e. ridership). You’re reading your own whims into this. I did not say that the Round Bar would come first and foremost. I simply ‘honestly’ admitted that was one of its potential uses. In spite of your weak paraphrase, I also didn’t say I would ‘potentially’ use it for the other daily, weekly, montly ‘stuff.’ We’d commute on it much more than we would go drinking at the Round Bar.
One doesn’t need to ‘overcome’ the other. I can be for the economic development of central Ohio, and also for riding the streetcar to Kinkos and back. They are two answers to why the streetcar should be built. A third is that it is the catalyst to your vision of a much wider rail transit system in central Ohio.
Finally, if you are so confident you can find other economic development options, I’d like to hear an example.
Please show me some studies that economic development, new visitors, or any other of the benefits following streetcars in every city that’s built them follows more parking garages.
I realize this is the last thing the streetcar proponents would want: as there is. no. need.
I’d love to see a Needs Assessment prior to the opening of yet another bar with $10 burgers… who needs another place to watch OSU games, really? And aren’t they just DUI factories? Wouldn’t people just drink in the safety of home if they weren’t around?? Bar food isn’t ‘good for you’, think of the city’s health!!
Alright, so I’m being an ass. :
Yes, you are
Hopefully with a point, though. :
Not that way
Actually you’re right we really don’t need “a streetcar” we need “a streetcar system or some other form of efficient mass transit usable by a majority of the city that is run by electricity and not oil”.
Yes!!!!!! This I can get behind!!!!
Dammit! You were doing so well until then! ;)
It is only because I have sadly given up on something truly great being done all at once. No mayor or council member has the brass ones to suggest a few billion for a complete system. The gasping and screaming about a hundred million have proven that. We need larger funding sources not just city money for that clearly. I would gladly pay some tax for such a system but apparently I am in the minority.
Dammit, we SHOULD do it all at once. But it ain’t gonna happen in this climate. SO… do we just throw a “first step” away because it’s not a complete system? I fear we might, but I dont think we should.
cheers
I realize this is the last thing the streetcar proponents would want: as there is. no. need.
I’d love to see a Needs Assessment prior to the opening of yet another bar with $10 burgers… who needs another place to watch OSU games, really? And aren’t they just DUI factories? Wouldn’t people just drink in the safety of home if they weren’t around?? Bar food isn’t ‘good for you’, think of the city’s health!!
Alright, so I’m being an ass. :
Yes, you are
Hopefully with a point, though. :
Not that way
Then you’ve proved other people’s point… this is all about the benefit to you (or lack thereof), not the benefit to the city.
And not to critcize without benefit: if I had to suggest a solution to any SN\/Campus/GV/IV VV, etc “problems”…I’d start with parking.
Better parking will do a hell of a lot more for those areas than anything else.
Tell me that the city wants to spend $110M on municipal parking structures and I’m on board 100%
The City is already spending $30million this year on parking structures in the “benefit” zone of the streetcar. Read the press release here:
[url]http://columbusretrometro.typepad.com/columbus_retrometro/2008/01/city-set-to-bui.html[/url]
Columbus tax increment financing is also part of the plan for the new public parking garage at the Ibiza in the Short North.
So our tax dollars are already going to garages.
Better parking will do a hell of a lot more for those areas than anything else.
Tell me that the city wants to spend $110M on municipal parking structures and I’m on board 100%
Just what Columbus needs, more cars and more parking. The urban core of Columbus needs to become much more livable, ie. pedestrian traffic, which does much more to increase economic development and supports businesses far better than traffic. I have been able to see and do much more within the urban core of Columbus lately by being on the bike and walking around. I can justify spending a little bit of money on a good lunch from a local business because I didn’t just spend 3.50 in gas, plus parking to get there.
Yes, there needs to be a vastly expanded transit network. Do you build the house in one day or lay down the foundation? If they can show the street as a success and create downtown as a destination, then you can go the next step of lines running on the existing tracks. Bring people to a station under the convention center, hell bring back Union Station-theres a bicentennial 2012 plan for you-so that a resident in Pickerington, Reynoldsburg, Pataskala, Westerville, Deleware and wherever else can hope a train, pay much less in fees for the ride than by driving and parking, and transfer to our street car.
But, it is two seperate issues. It needs to be made clear (and needs to really be) that the streetcar will not stop or slow down what COTA needs to do. Those plans should be rock solid and progressing in a way that can be seen and felt. The streetcar is then surplus to that as an economic engine, a showpiece and the first step to non-auto, mass-transit. Right now the pro-streetcar people and COTA are not making this clear enough. Not by a long shot.
+1
This is a baby step. A first small one. We missed the chance for a giant leap when light rail when down. Imagine how pretty Columbus and environs would be sitting if trains were about ready to run from Dublin, Reynoldburg, Canal Winchester and Groveport to downtown? Imagine how better the housing markets in those areas would better be able to withstand the mortgage crunch? After all these years, the City has been forced into a box where they are doing what can be done with requiring the least amount of veto ability from the State or suburbs. It is a start, a step in the right direction with economic benefits that can push steps.
double+1
I’m just being very honest about why I think it’d be cool.
I’d LOVE to hear a pro streetcar argument that will make it happen…but I haven’t seen one yet.
The problem with the streetcar as proposed is that it is clearly superfluous. We don’t need a streetcar: we just want one..
The same applied to every other city that built a successful streetcar system, though. Portland and Tampa would still exist today if they’d never built their streetcars. It’s not like they were in danger of folding and the economic development spurred by the streetcar saved them. However, if you cannot cite any evidence that the streetcars will fail, then you
To paraphrase what Core has been saying: We’re betting on a 22-0 team. You’re saying that just because they’re 22-0 doesn’t mean that they’ll win their next game.
This is entirely correct. No guarantees. This could be Georgetown-Villanova. But if you’ve got to take bets, which side are you betting on, the 22-0 team or the 0-22 one?
1) when (not if) you build it…
2) trust us: it’ll be awesome!
I really don’t think anyone is assuming “When (not if) it’s built …” If proponents were really so confident that this were a sealed deal, they wouldn’t need to turn out in such numbers at public events to show support. Public transit advocates in central Ohio remember very well what happened to the light rail proposal, and can see the naysayers so often given the public spotlight in the media. What makes you think that people have moved on from “if” to “when?”
With respect to the “trust us, it’ll be awesome,” I think Core already said it well enough: we have every reason to believe that it will in fact be successful at bringing economic development to the benefit zone. The study you cited explicitly discounted peripheral economic development, which is where the lion’s share of the benefits accrue, so of course taking it out of the equation makes streetcars look like a losing proposition.
I have not said, will not say, and do not believe that the streetcar will actually turn an operating profit. I do, however, believe that it will be less “in the red” in the operating profit sense than any 2.8-mile stretch of superhighway in this state, given that those have revenue of zero and costs of … erm, not zero. Roads, like streetcars, aren’t justified by direct profits; they’re justified by the auxiliary economic and social activity they enable. That is the standard by which we ask that streetcars be judged because anything else is a double standard.
If you insist on saying “well, you can’t prove in advance that streetcars will bring economic benefits just because they always have,” I will start saying the exact same thing about roads, just to illustrate the hypocrisy of the argument. There is no more guarantee that any specific road-building proposal will bring economic development than that the streetcar proposal will. That doesn’t stop people from rationally forecasting the economic benefits based on prior experience. That may count as “predicting the future,” but it’s based on evidentiary models and past experience, not crystal-gazing. This is why I resent the “Cult of the Streetcar” moniker some naysayers have tried to pin on streetcar advocates. It’s not blind faith when it’s backed up by tangible evidence.