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COLUMBUS City Council meeting – Streetcars to get public hearing next week
Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:06 AM
By Robert Vitale
Columbus City Council members complained last week that they’ve been left out of the loop on Mayor Michael B. Coleman’s streetcar plan.
Last night, they made the loop bigger.
The council will host its first public hearing next week on the $103 million proposal to build a 2.8-mile rail line between Downtown and Ohio State University. The council’s decision came in an impromptu debate at the end of the weekly meeting.
The day and time haven’t been firmed up, but Councilwoman Maryellen O’Shaughnessy said she wants the session to take place before the council votes on Coleman’s proposed 2008 capital budget.
That budget, which includes a $2 million request to begin design and engineering work for the streetcar line, is scheduled for council action on May 5.
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Streetcars to get public hearing next week
By: lazyfish
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Thank you,
Haley Boehning
Transplanted New Yorker and Short North Home Owner
Right, I get that, but what if it’s not? I think that question can be answered before we proceed with an engineering study. Having a few what if scenarios and solutions up front would at least build some consensus in this neighborhood.
I’m with you. I mentioned previously in one of the other Streetcar threads that I’d like to see those businesses that could potentially be affected come up with a plan of action. Perhaps the SNBA could put something together to present to City Council and get them onboard with helping out.
I think that would go over better than approaching Council with a “sky is falling” statement and a demand for them to come up with the solution to fix what may or may not be a problem.
In order for businesses to form a plan of action they need data to make an informed plan. Nobody has bothered to gather data on what I would consider to be a crucial data point – how many businesses went out of business due to the impact of streetcar construction in comparable cities?
I would think the authors and supporters of the current proposal would have nailed down that data point. It hasn’t been and thus, raises concerns.
I too would like to see more information on this. It’s a fairly subjective thing to try to measure, so I’m interested to see how it’s objectively handled. Two side-by-side businesses could take an equal hit in customer/income losses during construction and one may be able to weather it while another may not. It could all depend upon their financial situation, business model flexibility, or dozens of other factors in effect prior to construction. The impact from construction is the same for both businesses, yet one is gone and one survives. Arguably, the business that shut down could attribute this to the project’s construction period even if it was just the straw that broke the camel’s back.
A recent example that comes to mind:
Story Headline : Airlines trim CMH service, cite Skybus as reason
Story quote: Two airlines have trimmed service at Port Columbus, and both say Skybus Airlines played a role in their decisions.
I find it hard to believe that these airlines would be doing hunky-dory right now if Skybus had never existed. One small thing that impacted them negatively was not the overall reason they shut down.
There’s a much bigger picture to look at here if a business cannot handle a single month of lagging sales.
A Short North business owner who was opposed to the Streetcars told me this morning that now he can’t wait for them.
With Valets taking up every possible parking space (especially Marcella’s, Rigsby’s and the ever-expanding Hyde Park), there is virtually NO parking for the true small businesses, the boutiques, coffee shops, small bars and restaurants. Some alternatives are certainly needed. Granted, the Valets are a whole other can of worms but its important to note that valet parking mostly serves the suburbanites that comes to visit, there are few alternatives for those of us that truly live, work and play downtown.
Who serves the people that truly live and support downtown every single day, just not Gallery Hop weekends? I pay taxes for their giant highways that I rarely use. Their Valets eat our parking up. Last time I was on 70-71 interchange was 2007.
Walking/biking from Surly Girl to Tip Top is not always a viable or efficient option for me most days (especially in some of our Ohio weather) and at night, especially on Friday or Saturday when parking is at a premium, I want something else.
I want a system that supports the great people that support a thriving downtown Columbus. There were safer and more profitable places to set up shop besides Gay Street, we did it because we believe in Downtown. We need some infrastructure, some help to grow this place. Giant parking lots will not help us. Reliable transit connecting our districts will.
*whew*
Agreed that data is subjective at best. It’s not about having lagging sales for a month. Let’s say this neighborhood (SN) compromises 12 blocks or 1 year of total construction time. This could create a perception problem (traffic delays, construction hassles, walkability of the neighborhood) for the entire district, which could potentially impact businesses.
A key component of the growth of this neighborhood (SN) is people coming in (driving from the suburbs) and spending money. If word travels back to avoid this area all together because of traffic delays and how pain in the ass construction is – the whole district could suffer regardless of whether or not construction is directly in front of their establishment.
Again though, we have no data at all on this particular issue, but we’ll gladly blow smoke with data when it’s a convenient tool to persuade to support personal assumptions and viewpoints.
I was just chatting w/ someone about the SN shops thing and we thought it would be a great chance to get really creative:
Work with the City to pick a time for the construction to occur and have a big Hop to kick it off. HS will be closed, get the City to help foot the police costs and have a massive street party. A Holiday-like Hop in Aug could provide a cash surge to help businesses weather a lull until the the Dec Holiday Hop which could also be leveraged.
Secondly, hold the balls of the landlords who are supporting the streetcar over the fire. Get a rent-free month or two with a repayment schedule over a year post-streetcar opening.
When they get the nuts-n-bolts of the financing down, that would be a good time for the SBNA to extract some signage and licensing space on the car in exchange.
Lastly, there are some really interesting micro-financing solutions out there. Using something like The Point ([url]http://www.thepoint.com/[/url]) to help run a fund – come up with a number as a goal for a biz or a block and find out how much support you can garner. Pledge it back or as 125% in merchandise if you don’t need it.
Anyway, just some random thoughts we came up with.
A.
Andrew I like the idea as well. If landlords think it’s that great they should put up.
With Valets taking up every possible parking space (especially Marcella’s, Rigsby’s and the ever-expanding Hyde Park), there is virtually NO parking for the true small businesses, the boutiques, coffee shops, small bars and restaurants.
*whew*
I totally agree that there are too many spaces reserved for valet. Does the city get a cut of their profits or something? They literally steal up all the best spots… its so annoying to see an open spot in front of your destination with one of those annoying orange bags on them. Not to mention that the police seem to turn a blind eye to the valet services that break the law. I once saw a whole like of empty cars parked along goodale avenue from park st. to High st. with their blinkers all flashing as they waited to be parked – if anyone else did that, they’d be towed. Those valet drivers also speed, run red lights, and drive recklessly in general. I’ve also on more than one occasion had to suddenly brake, putting myself and other drives in danger, because a valet boy darted across the middle of the street without looking for traffic. I hate valet.
As for the streetcar’s impact on business, I’m not sure how it will affect them. I think that if the time for construction is short, and those independent stores go out of business because of it, then it probably was just a matter of time before they were going to go out of business anyways.
I really do care for the independent businesses on High st., but I still support the streetcar even if it adversely affects them during construction. Reason is, I care more about the quality of life for residents in that neighborhood than the businesses which, by and large, are newcomers and thus haven’t yet significantly contributed to the quality of life in that area. Specialty stores are good, better transport is way better for your quality of life, no?
It really looks like people are starting to say “How can we make this happen” instead of “This can not happen”. There is always a way, always. I will agree with some of the “on the fence” people though, each aspect needs to be thought out and if this doesn’t hit our 2012 date but it saves 100% of the stores then so be it.
With Valets taking up every possible parking space (especially Marcella’s, Rigsby’s and the ever-expanding Hyde Park), there is virtually NO parking for the true small businesses, the boutiques, coffee shops, small bars and restaurants.
*whew*
I totally agree that there are too many spaces reserved for valet. Does the city get a cut of their profits or something? They literally steal up all the best spots… its so annoying to see an open spot in front of your destination with one of those annoying orange bags on them. Not to mention that the police seem to turn a blind eye to the valet services that break the law. I once saw a whole like of empty cars parked along goodale avenue from park st. to High st. with their blinkers all flashing as they waited to be parked – if anyone else did that, they’d be towed. Those valet drivers also speed, run red lights, and drive recklessly in general. I’ve also on more than one occasion had to suddenly brake, putting myself and other drives in danger, because a valet boy darted across the middle of the street without looking for traffic. I hate valet.
As for the streetcar’s impact on business, I’m not sure how it will affect them. I think that if the time for construction is short, and those independent stores go out of business because of it, then it probably was just a matter of time before they were going to go out of business anyways.
I really do care for the independent businesses on High st., but I still support the streetcar even if it adversely affects them during construction. Reason is, I care more about the quality of life for residents in that neighborhood than the businesses which, by and large, are newcomers and thus haven’t yet significantly contributed to the quality of life in that area. Specialty stores are good, better transport is way better for your quality of life, no?
Let me step in for a second here, because I think you’re about to get torn a new one for that. The businesses are the reason short north is as great as it is. We need them. They are the reason it does well while competing with Easton. Plus there are a lot of business owners on here that I’m 100% sure will disagree with you.
Let me step in for a second here, because I think you’re about to get torn a new one for that. The businesses are the reason short north is as great as it is. We need them. They are the reason it does well while competing with Easton. Plus there are a lot of business owners on here that I’m 100% sure will disagree with you.
Actually, I would disagree. I personally think the Short North was better off a few years ago when it had more galleries than it is today with as many stores as there are. Also, I think the Short North is great because of its close proximity to Downtown, and OSU. Businesses are good too, but they’re hardly the sole reason for the areas success – in fact I’d attribute its success to the artists and gay community who came into that area to begin with. But again, while specialty stores are nice, better transport is better. Stores are nice for shopping, but getting around easily is even better for your life, especially when it provides easy access to places like OSU, Downtown, and the GV.
Anyways, newcomer businesses haven’t yet had time to seriously affect the area, and so their loss wouldn’t drastically change things. If stores go out of business because of a short (and if thats short) construction period, then they weren’t so successful to begin with. A prolonged construction period would change my mind, but I think the SN will be better off after the tram goes in, even if some businesses go under. I think that if there is a massive shutdown of businesses in the area (which I think is unlikely), then they will be replaced by other businesses as soon as the construction is complete.
I forgot – I’m sure almost every business owner would disagree with my statement, but thats just expected since they’re speaking on behalf of their self-interests. They’re obviously going to be biased against anything that hurts business now, unless they’re convinced of the benefits that will come afterwards.
Andrew I like the idea as well. If landlords think it’s that great they should put up.
wow, i’m not going to be with the khanra post. for the thread, that’s their opinion and i hope doesn’t get misconstrued as “streetcar supporters say who cares about businesses.”
inevitably some businesses may go out, at least one of the aforementioned businesses was recently for sale. and it’s actually one my wife likes, so i hope it stays with the rest of them.
but instead of free-rent, which i don’t see likely or would be evenly distributed (with no enforcement a couple landlords might do it, but others would not), why not look at property tax-credits that could be mandated to lower rents during a period of construction? the offsets in taxes should come back after completion with the tax increments from increased property values and new builds. the question becomes, is there a model for this?
COTA does.
Let me step in for a second here, because I think you’re about to get torn a new one for that. The businesses are the reason short north is as great as it is. We need them. They are the reason it does well while competing with Easton. Plus there are a lot of business owners on here that I’m 100% sure will disagree with you.
Actually, I would disagree. I personally think the Short North was better off a few years ago when it had more galleries than it is today with as many stores as there are. Also, I think the Short North is great because of its close proximity to Downtown, and OSU. Businesses are good too, but they’re hardly the sole reason for the areas success – in fact I’d attribute its success to the artists and gay community who came into that area to begin with. But again, while specialty stores are nice, better transport is better. Stores are nice for shopping, but getting around easily is even better for your life, especially when it provides easy access to places like OSU, Downtown, and the GV.
Anyways, newcomer businesses haven’t yet had time to seriously affect the area, and so their loss wouldn’t drastically change things. If stores go out of business because of a short (and if thats short) construction period, then they weren’t so successful to begin with. A prolonged construction period would change my mind, but I think the SN will be better off after the tram goes in, even if some businesses go under. I think that if there is a massive shutdown of businesses in the area (which I think is unlikely), then they will be replaced by other businesses as soon as the construction is complete.
Correct me if I’m wrong…but aren’t galleries (besides the non-profit ones) also businesses?
Question:
What has proposed for parking solutions at the ends of the Streetcar liine?
Everyone is talking about alleviating parking in the short north and downtown but all the suburban dwellers who drive into town to be “entertained and shop” will still need to park somewhere if they’re going to use the streetcar as their “last mile” form of transportation.
For those who live in the GV, IV, SHorthnorth, campus, etc. this isn’t really a problem, but we all know that more than just urban dwellers come into center city.
If the street car brings even more people as many have postulated, there will be likely more car traffic than what is already occurring. Where are these people going to park?
What has proposed for parking solutions at the ends of the Streetcar liine?
Everyone is talking about alleviating parking in the short north and downtown but all the suburban dwellers who drive into town to be “entertained and shop” will still need to park somewhere if they’re going to use the streetcar as their “last mile” form of transportation.
For those who live in the GV, IV, SHorthnorth, campus, etc. this isn’t really a problem, but we all know that more than just urban dwellers come into center city.
If the street car brings even more people as many have postulated, there will be likely more car traffic than what is already occurring. Where are these people going to park?
the city is already investing 30+ million in 2 parking garages downtown:
[url]http://www.columbusunderground.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8804[/url]
both lie in the ‘benefit’ zone and are 1-2 blocks off the streetcar route.
by the time this got built 2012+, hopefully the Ibiza on Hubbard will also be at completion and maybe the proposed Pizzuti garage in the in-fill btwn. Marcella’s and Burgundy Room would also be under way or completed.
wow, i’m not going to be with the khanra post. for the thread, that’s their opinion and i hope doesn’t get misconstrued as “streetcar supporters say who cares about businesses.”
Misconstrued as a supporter of both the streetcar and the business? I mean, I very clearly stated that I care more about the quality of life for residents, than the businesses themselves. There’s nothing to be confused about. I’ll state it again: I care about the businesses, but I care more about the residents. I don’t want prolonged construction (to help businesses avoid too many troubles), but I don’t want residents to lose out on something which would benefit them. And like I said before, those businesses would likely benefit from a streetcar system. No need to misconstrue me as a whacko because I have a list of priorities that doesn’t place business at the very top.
Let me step in for a second here, because I think you’re about to get torn a new one for that. The businesses are the reason short north is as great as it is. We need them. They are the reason it does well while competing with Easton. Plus there are a lot of business owners on here that I’m 100% sure will disagree with you.
Actually, I would disagree. I personally think the Short North was better off a few years ago when it had more galleries than it is today with as many stores as there are. Also, I think the Short North is great because of its close proximity to Downtown, and OSU. Businesses are good too, but they’re hardly the sole reason for the areas success – in fact I’d attribute its success to the artists and gay community who came into that area to begin with. But again, while specialty stores are nice, better transport is better. Stores are nice for shopping, but getting around easily is even better for your life, especially when it provides easy access to places like OSU, Downtown, and the GV.
Anyways, newcomer businesses haven’t yet had time to seriously affect the area, and so their loss wouldn’t drastically change things. If stores go out of business because of a short (and if thats short) construction period, then they weren’t so successful to begin with. A prolonged construction period would change my mind, but I think the SN will be better off after the tram goes in, even if some businesses go under. I think that if there is a massive shutdown of businesses in the area (which I think is unlikely), then they will be replaced by other businesses as soon as the construction is complete.
Wow. You’re out of your ****ing mind. Do you live down here? Because 75 percent of the business owners do. So I would be careful before you start talking about what is, or isn’t, good for our residents.
wow, i’m not going to be with the khanra post. for the thread, that’s their opinion and i hope doesn’t get misconstrued as “streetcar supporters say who cares about businesses.”
Misconstrued as a supporter of both the streetcar and the business? I mean, I very clearly stated that I care more about the quality of life for residents, than the businesses themselves. There’s nothing to be confused about. I’ll state it again: I care about the businesses, but I care more about the residents. I don’t want prolonged construction (to help businesses avoid too many troubles), but I don’t want residents to lose out on something which would benefit them. And like I said before, those businesses would likely benefit from a streetcar system. No need to misconstrue me as a whacko because I have a list of priorities that doesn’t place business at the very top.
khanra – i definitely didn’t intend to label you as a whacko. my point was just that in this debate soundbites and blurbs are being constantly pinched and used to define a whole argument. so i just wanted that to stay within the context of your point, and not be attributed to the entire ‘supporter’ camp.