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COLUMBUS City Council meeting – Streetcars to get public hearing next week
Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:06 AM
By Robert Vitale
Columbus City Council members complained last week that they’ve been left out of the loop on Mayor Michael B. Coleman’s streetcar plan.
Last night, they made the loop bigger.
The council will host its first public hearing next week on the $103 million proposal to build a 2.8-mile rail line between Downtown and Ohio State University. The council’s decision came in an impromptu debate at the end of the weekly meeting.
The day and time haven’t been firmed up, but Councilwoman Maryellen O’Shaughnessy said she wants the session to take place before the council votes on Coleman’s proposed 2008 capital budget.
That budget, which includes a $2 million request to begin design and engineering work for the streetcar line, is scheduled for council action on May 5.
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Streetcars to get public hearing next week
By: lazyfish
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Not to mention it would involve more that just City of Columbus which is a big stumbling block.
It should also be pointed out that Main/Broad are also US 40 and 3rd/4th are US 23. I suspect that any track-laying plans would require a higher level of State/Federal cooperation.
A.
To insinuate that others must have been brainwashed to think differently than you is a bit insulting.
I’m glad we have a healthy course of debate here with people representing all angles on this topic. I feel that the comments here on both sides of the coin are mostly more educated than the kneejerk reactions seen on the Dispatch commentary on their site.
Walker, agreed the comments on CU are mostly educated on all sides of the debate. I’m sorry that you personally feel insulted by my comment. It’s definitely not my intention to insult friends (most of my friends support the streetcar) or those with opposing viewpoints here in the forums. I was just trying to paint a picture.
My comment reflects a personal feeling that the tactics used to inform and persuade people who are against or on the fence about the streetcar are ineffective, oversell the benefits (ex. “keeps YP’s here”) and worse, feel cult like. This sensationalism could help kill the initiative just as much as the naysayers. That’s a personal assessment. The communication strategy for this needs some serious work both grass roots and at the city level.
Like I said all along I’ve been on the fence regarding the Columbus Streetcar proposal. I’m a huge fan of mass transit and rail transportation. I’ve worked and lived in cities (NYC, Boston, DC, Shanghai, Beijing, Taipei, Calcutta) where I’ve benefited from and witnessed the impact of rail transportation and it’s role in building world class cities. I get the importance of the Columbus Streetcar and think we need it. I also realize that it’s intention here is significantly different than the cities mentioned above.
That said, I’m disappointed in what I see as some rubber stamping of the proposal (by some supporters, not all) that is currently on the table. We get one chance to build in demands that get upfront commitments in this proposal. To not use that voice and make realistic demands is irresponsible in my opinion.
The one point I keep beating up on is the impact of construction on High Street businesses. That’s an honest concern, which has been unaddressed.
We have a growth district, the Short North, which I feel could potentially be impacted by construction. I’ve yet to see a municipal construction project or any for that matter that doesn’t encounter unique challenges or delays. If the “low-impact, modern” streetcar construction methods are what they say then we should put our money where our mouth is and back up that belief with firm commitments in the current proposal that state if timelines are not met business owners are entitled to compensation to stay alive.
The fact that this one particular point hasn’t been considered is troubling.
We definitely don’t need an engineering study to get those kind of commitments baked into the current proposal. Those commitments are key tools needed to have an effective communication strategy, which would better inform and persuade people to get on board with the streetcar.
I want to support the current proposal and definitely support streetcars. I think we should tighten up what’s on the table, be honest about people’s concerns, get specific demands met in the proposal up-front and then go about the business of getting this done.
Now, I WOULD like to see that 3rd & 4th street loop (hell, you could run that all the way to Hudson and you get to hit the residential at the end, along with all the residential (more students) on 3rd & 4th) meet up with a line on Broad, with the Broad Street line hitting fewer stops, almost like a Broad Express that would run from Bexley to Mt Carmel. Imagine all those $Bexley$ residents having easy access to the SN. This is what I call moving people and it’s something I could easily get behind.
If you look at this long-term, and get out your Magic 8-ball (thanks, Core, I like that), you could imagine a time when 3rd & 4th become the main downtown corridors either way, since the promised development would grow around teh lines (so they say) and THEN, you might be able to make High more pedestrian friendly.
greenhouse, good thoughts and I def. see where you are coming from, but I think I’m still on board for it running down high both ways. And I’m trying to think of it from a conventioner’s point of view. I would think they would want to step out and get on plus know they are coming back the same way. I know i get lost in other cities pretty easily. If there was a large interactive map right outside the convention center people might feel better traveling 10 blocks from their current spot instead of 2-3. I also really like the thought of connecting Bexley (i would also like to see Upper Arlington connected) but I think that would be a good phase 2. Most of the people i know in those areas do come downtown (short north) quite a bit. I think when this expands, these people will be the first to want it. Again, I really like that you are looking to alternative ideas and good ones at that.
I like the general idea of that, but I think people underestimate just how far Bexley is from downtown, let alone the Short North. Streetcars just aren’t that fast. (I know you said you’re thinking an express line, but keep in mind that the cost per mile means that you really need to get serious use out of every mile of track to make these things work at maximum effectiveness.) It’s about 4.7 miles from the Bexley Drexel (just picking an arbitrary spot to call “Bexley”) to High & Buttles (doing likewise for someplace to call “The Short North”). The entire proposed line for High is 2.8 miles.
I’ll call back the point that planners have identified something like 36 underdeveloped acres along the proposed route. That’s a solid number because it leaves room for development, but not too much; it’s a digestible amount of real estate. Along a Bexley-Short North line, you’d be looking at many times that. That may be more than is manageable. That would make our streetcar system larger than Portland’s. The risk of biting off more than one can chew has to be a pragmatic consideration here.
OK, maybe we can start it East at College. I think the riders you’ll pick up will prove the benefit that you’re looking for, since we’ll actually be able to move people in and out of downtown, thereby making it at least SEEM more beneficial. I know that leaves A LOT of undeveloped property, but it also adds an actual transportation element to it, which may appease some of the anti-streetcar people (I know it would appease me a bit). At least I didn’t suggest running it down Livingston or Main. THAT line would run past A LOT MORE developmental areas (not that they couldn’t use some love).
[quote="Andrew Hall"]
It should also be pointed out that Main/Broad are also US 40 and 3rd/4th are US 23. I suspect that any track-laying plans would require a higher level of State/Federal cooperation.
A.
That is true. And the IV society and local developers have repeatedly made requests for 4th Street and Summit to be transitioned back to 2-way status north of 670, thus making them more residential and ped friendly. Not that this couldn’t jive well with this idea, but depending on where you laid the tracks, it could determine future possibility.
I originally thought this idea would be great for LRT (up to Hudson and then transition to the rail tracks along Indianola to Worthington). But if we remove all potential constraints, I think it would make a productive loop that would as I’ve always stated:
1. provide economic stimulus
– new: the old Columbus Coated Fabrics site is a block off 4th
– existing: the shops off High are one block west of Summit
2. promote ridership
– still loops in OSU, and brings WP and IV into city core
I think a number of the skeptics think those of us who promote the streetcar will only accept the High line. My acceptance of the High line is that it appears to be the most realistic option that has presented to move Columbus towards rail. However in politics and civic improvements, if we wait until everybody agrees and everything is perfect, nothing ever happens. There simply is no perfect route that would appease everyone.
I don’t think there IS a communication strategy, but if there’s anyone out there connected to this, I’m willing to contract to put it together. I may go Bill Moss on here a little every once in a while, but I’m professional and I think someone who has doubts is best suited because I think I’m asking some of teh questions that need to be communicated. Overall, the communication strategy has been pretty lame.
Interview available upon request.
I don’t think there IS a communication strategy, but if there’s anyone out there connected to this, I’m willing to contract to put it together. I may go Bill Moss on here a little every once in a while, but I’m professional and I think someone who has doubts is best suited because I think I’m asking some of teh questions that need to be communicated. Overall, the communication strategy has been pretty lame.
Agreed, I don’t think there is an effective communication strategy for the proposal with the exception of the Dispatch, which is hellbent on slamming the proposal. If this is going to fly we need to be a lot more buttoned up.
I don’t know about the Hotel/Conventioneer angle, really. I go to at least 2 conventions a year (oh, yea, whoopeedoo) in prety metropolitan areas and all I’ve ever had to do was get a shuttle to take me wherever I needed to go and, with a phone call, pick me up. To me, and I may be the only one, this seems easier than trying to wait for a rail or even look at a schedule.
I totally agree. The small amount of outreach so far seems to have been done well, but there’s a lot of gaps left to be filled in. I think Paul’s new site has really helped step things up from a grassroots level though.
I think it’s been addressed as well as it can be. It’s been stated that construction phases for Streetcars have a relatively short window when looking at similar projects. The details on this haven’t emerged yet to answer the question more fully though because the engineering study has not been done yet. Which is what’s currently on the table for Council to approve.
I think that’s been a bit of a misconception this week. City Council isn’t voting to yes/no on the Streetcar as a whole. They’re voting on whether or not to allocate funding to complete the engineering study. If everyone pro/con/whatever wants their questions answered, moving forward with this single small step is pretty much the only way to get some solid data in front of us.
I don’t think there IS a communication strategy, but if there’s anyone out there connected to this, I’m willing to contract to put it together. I may go Bill Moss on here a little every once in a while, but I’m professional and I think someone who has doubts is best suited because I think I’m asking some of teh questions that need to be communicated. Overall, the communication strategy has been pretty lame.
Interview available upon request.
Ha, I agree, but I do love the new Unofficial website. Maybe you should write a lot of the questions that will go on there? I really think this could be one of our best tools. Also, why not have a “Streetcar Tent” and sporting events? I know it sounds lame, but at least it would get a lot of face time even if no one stops to talk.
anyone know who I could talk to about getting on the communication team? Who doesn’t need a designer with marketing and communication experience?
Right, I get that, but what if it’s not? I think that question can be answered before we proceed with an engineering study. Having a few what if scenarios and solutions up front would at least build some consensus in this neighborhood.
The one point I keep beating up on is the impact of construction on High Street businesses. That’s an honest concern, which has been unaddressed.
We have a growth district, the Short North, which I feel could potentially be impacted by construction. I’ve yet to see a municipal construction project or any for that matter that doesn’t encounter unique challenges or delays. If the “low-impact, modern” streetcar construction methods are what they say then we should put our money where our mouth is and back up that belief with firm commitments in the current proposal that state if timelines are not met business owners are entitled to compensation to stay alive.
The fact that this one particular point hasn’t been considered is troubling.
Jon, as a supporter of the streetcar I read this post as a well thought and supported argument.
I do have to state, as I have elsewhere, that I think in the long run this is good news for the SN. But I am thinking:
a. long-term after the line is finished that hotel dwellers and conventioneers will move further up High(I’ve had to participate in some conferences downtown, been with wedding guests staying there, etc.. and the reluctance to walk or head somewhere where parking is tight prevents many people from venturing up)
b. as a residential property owner, I see my property value continuing to increase long-term
H/e, I realize that businesses are not too concerned about the long-term if they cannot survive to be there for it. My only question is, what would the answer be? My first guess would be tax incentives during the construction period – but I would imagine that this would work better for the building owners than the business occupants.
What other forms of compensation would be there? (I am ruling out an outright cash transfer, because I just don’t see that happening.)
I presume the answer is no, but did anything like this happen during the arch installation or the 670 shut down? I am just wondering if there is any precedence?
Thought this was cool! One guy built a 5 mile private streetcar in 1903.
Ohio & Southern Traction Company – 1903 [estimated]-1929, Standard Gauge, 5 miles from Columbus to the Hartman Stock Farm. Privately owned by Dr. Samuel Hartman.
Where is our gumption these days?
http://www.columbusrailroads.com/interurban.htm
Ohio & Southern Traction Company – 1903 [estimated]-1929, Standard Gauge, 5 miles from Columbus to the Hartman Stock Farm. Privately owned by Dr. Samuel Hartman.
Where is our gumption these days?
http://www.columbusrailroads.com/interurban.htm
A lot of our local gumption is in New Albany. I’ve always thought it would be nice if Wex would kick in an LRT line to Easton from the airport. In MSP, the first line went airport to Mall of America. Then you make the second link airport – downtown, voila (and a few hundred mil later), urban-suburban rail.
But on private finance of major construction, I do give Columbus kudos for having stadiums (Crew, Nationwide) built by largely private funding. Something that is a rarity these days.
This quote reminds me of what the artists have been saying about the Short North for awhile now. That they have been priced out and are not reaping the benefits from what they created. It would be really cool if Tigertree and other boutique stores were able to find a building along the proposed streetcar line that they could own together, and then they would be the ones that stood to directly gain from the streetcar benefit zone.
Right. I understand, and generally support gentrification. The difference is, this is forced gentrification. This is a singular event that will force businesses to close.
Just asking.
Unless something significant happens on my end. Sure thing. It’d probably be around 2015 though.
I won’t have to wait that long. I would be out in less than 5. I’ll be too old to care by 2015 :lol:
Just asking.
I already left…..
I totally agree. The small amount of outreach so far seems to have been done well, but there’s a lot of gaps left to be filled in. I think Paul’s new site has really helped step things up from a grassroots level though.
I think it’s been addressed as well as it can be. It’s been stated that construction phases for Streetcars have a relatively short window when looking at similar projects. The details on this haven’t emerged yet to answer the question more fully though because the engineering study has not been done yet. Which is what’s currently on the table for Council to approve.
I think that’s been a bit of a misconception this week. City Council isn’t voting to yes/no on the Streetcar as a whole. They’re voting on whether or not to allocate funding to complete the engineering study. If everyone pro/con/whatever wants their questions answered, moving forward with this single small step is pretty much the only way to get some solid data in front of us.
I totally disagree that impact on businesses has been addressed as well as it can be. They admitted at the meeting that they had not even looked in to how many businesses along streetcar construction paths closed due to construction. As far as I could tell, they admitted the only parking to replace our current meters is the half of the Ibiza garage.
Right, I get that, but what if it’s not? I think that question can be answered before we proceed with an engineering study. Having a few what if scenarios and solutions up front would at least build some consensus in this neighborhood.
I’m with you. I mentioned previously in one of the other Streetcar threads that I’d like to see those businesses that could potentially be affected come up with a plan of action. Perhaps the SNBA could put something together to present to City Council and get them onboard with helping out.
I think that would go over better than approaching Council with a “sky is falling” statement and a demand for them to come up with the solution to fix what may or may not be a problem.