Streetcars to get public hearing next week

By: lazyfish

391 Comments

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  lifeontwowheels April 29, 2008 5:48 pm

  I have seen several comments here and elsewhere (Dispatch) regarding OSU and the perceived focus on OSU. I think it is a valid question, as are most of the ones raised, as there does seem to be a pre-occupation in this town with OSU.

  Keep in mind that OSU is one of the largest Universities in the United States, and its here in our backyard. Like it or not, we need to cater (to an extent) the students that are present at OSU, as well as those found at CCAD, CSCC, Franklin, Capital, ODU, Otterbein (did I miss anyone?) as a way to foster the future of our city. As members of our community begin to retire and jobs become open, who do you think is there to fill those vacancies?

  Yes, poor starving college kids are going to have issues affording some of the shops in SN, but they are only poor and starving (well maybe not us liberal arts majors) for 4-5 years. When they graduate and hit that 23-35 or so demographic, they are still young, single and stupid with new careers and a disposable income.

  The line itself is slated to run along, what I believe, could be called the backbone of our city. Debate that all you want but here is what you have, based on the current map: OSU, CSCC, CCAD and Franklin University connected directly by streetcar or within walking distance of the stop; 3-4 Museums in the form of Wexner, the Statehouse, Columbus Museum of Art and COSI, again directly connected or within walking distance; cultural centers in relation to the museums in the form of the theaters with the ballet and symphony; local, state and federal government centers; a number of local businesses (clustered primarily in the Short North, but growing through this area) and 4 sporting venues: college athletics, hockey, arena football and baseball. So is this really about shuttling drunken reprobate college kids to the bars? (BTW, I don’t like the insinuation that all college kids are drunken reprobates, as seems to be the bias when I see comments on my generation)
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  Walker April 29, 2008 5:48 pm

  JonMyers wrote I wish I could drink the kool-aid and join the cult of the street car.

  To insinuate that others must have been brainwashed to think differently than you is a bit insulting.

  I’m glad we have a healthy course of debate here with people representing all angles on this topic. I feel that the comments here on both sides of the coin are mostly more educated than the kneejerk reactions seen on the Dispatch commentary on their site.
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  cab124 April 29, 2008 5:49 pm

  Brewmaster wrote
  

  JonMyers wrote From what I understand Portland started with 4.8 miles of track at a cost of 57 million dollars. The Columbus proposal is 2.8 miles at a cost of 103 million dollars. Lahota’s answer last night regarding a question on the cost discrepancies was unsatisfactory in my opinion, further eroding my confidence in the project.

  What was his (Lhota’s) answer? It should have been the ungodly cost escalation we’ve been seeing in the commodities and labor markets over the last 5 years.

  Wasn’t his answer that the $103 million figure is a very conservative estimate that includes everything related to operating the streetcar line, including vehicles and maintenance facilities? That is the way I understood it.

  In order to make a valid comparison, we would need to know exactly what these other figures from other cities includes. Were these figures for the track alone? Track plus vehicles? If the comparison is valid, then this cost discrepancy needs to be addressed. How were other cities able to build lines at half the cost of our estimate?
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  Walker April 29, 2008 5:51 pm

  Mercurius wrote Why are you even posting on here. Go back to Missoui.

  http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?p=436319

  Please do not tell people not to post on this site. Everyone is welcome to post here regardless of geography.
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  Tigertree April 29, 2008 5:55 pm

  To be totally honest, I thought all of the pro-streetcar with the exception of Andrew and Dawon (and I am sincerely not just saying that because they post on here) amounted to “a streetcar would sure look cool.”
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  Walker April 29, 2008 6:01 pm

  Tigertree wrote To be totally honest, I thought all of the pro-streetcar with the exception of Andrew and Dawon (and I am sincerely not just saying that because they post on here) amounted to “a streetcar would sure look cool.”

  Then perhaps you need to take a step back and look at the whole situation a bit more objectively. No need to degrade other people’s opinions.
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  greenhouse1014 April 29, 2008 6:05 pm

  dru wrote
  

  greenhouse1014 wrote only one person spoke even half way intelligently (is that a word?) about it

  okay, i am taking too much offense. but i’m not letting it slide.

  speaking of flaming – since i was the only one that responded back on page 13 and answered the question about a wider plan, thanks for giving my response a vote of 1/2 intelligence. i’ll try to find where you responded to it to further that particular discussion to keep this thread on track.

  and yes “intelligently” is a word, or actually an adverb. i used my 1/2 intelligence to answer that.

  greenhouse1014 wrote I’d like to see the projections on ridership for the line we’re actually looking at.

  as for new projections to replace the Dantler ones, that is why the Council needs to fund the study. the study should have these targets, and i’ll be the first supporter to say it needs to have these benchmarks in order to be viable.

  I say 1/2 way only because you, admittedly, did not have the actual facts. I was NOT referring to you personally. Hope that makes a difference.

  Is council voting on a new study to replace the Danter? That’d be great. I thought the study in front of council was the engineering study. Am I wrong on this?
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  greenhouse1014 April 29, 2008 6:08 pm

  likewise:

  if it had both, would some of the non-supporters be in?

  could make me feel a little bit better because, to me, it would seem more functional. I think missing the museum and cosi is a big deal.
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  greenhouse1014 April 29, 2008 6:12 pm

  Tigertree wrote I know I am beating the same dead horse but..

  I have started to call stores around the country, in cities that house streetcars and interestingly enough, none of the stores I have spoken to thus far have been any help because everyone open in the neighborhood came AFTER the streetcar.

  So, were any of the businesses you talked to small, independent businesses like yourself? Do any of the existing stores know what happened to the old stores? Have you talked to anyone from the Chamber of Commerce in these areas?

  I’d be interested in seeing whether it was construction and increased rent that forced the old businesses out, there were no other businesses and also what kinds of retail replaced them. Was it a big box/franchise, or did more small business move in?
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  greenhouse1014 April 29, 2008 6:15 pm

  dru wrote
  

  Tigertree wrote I know I am beating the same dead horse but..

  I have started to call stores around the country, in cities that house streetcars and interestingly enough, none of the stores I have spoken to thus far have been any help because everyone open in the neighborhood came AFTER the streetcar.

  just out of curiosity, what if it went up 4th and down Summit as a loop? i’ve always liked this idea, as it would be proximate to High and still hit the campus area, but would bring in areas slightly more in need of development.

  better route? or still not justifiable?

  +1 as that would alleviate some of the logistic concerns I have.
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  cab124 April 29, 2008 6:27 pm

  Wow…check out the Dispatch poll. Its currently at 53% against to 47% for. I never thought it would become that close after seeing the 70-30 split earlier in the day.
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  Tigertree April 29, 2008 6:31 pm

  greenhouse1014 wrote
  

  Tigertree wrote I know I am beating the same dead horse but..

  I have started to call stores around the country, in cities that house streetcars and interestingly enough, none of the stores I have spoken to thus far have been any help because everyone open in the neighborhood came AFTER the streetcar.

  So, were any of the businesses you talked to small, independent businesses like yourself? Do any of the existing stores know what happened to the old stores? Have you talked to anyone from the Chamber of Commerce in these areas?

  I’d be interested in seeing whether it was construction and increased rent that forced the old businesses out, there were no other businesses and also what kinds of retail replaced them. Was it a big box/franchise, or did more small business move in?\

  You know, this seems like an incredibly stupid revelation, but no I have not thought of calling the Chambers. Thanks.

  From what I can tell most smaller shops are on offshoots of the line, not the main streets. That makes sense, and I wouldn’t be opposed to it. Hell, I wouldn’t necessarily be opposed to moving again if it were in some sort of cohesive effort where a cluster of us still end up next door to one of another. Maybe actually create that pedestrian thoroughfare that seems to be a super popular item on here.

  The problem is all of our landlords will have to let us out of all of our leases at the same time and something else will have to be emptied or created to house us all and thats obviously not happening. Basically our landlords only have something to gain; their property values skyrocket, and they get chains in our place that are less risky as far as paying rent is concerned, and the city gets a second Easton to create greater tax revenue. As the only losers in this fight, we (the stores) don’t really have anyone fighting for us.
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  greenhouse1014 April 29, 2008 6:33 pm

  what’s the SNBA take on this issue?
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  Tigertree April 29, 2008 6:39 pm

  I don’t believe the SNBA has taken an official position. I know Jon was at the meeting last night. With the close division of businesses that support and oppose it, I think it’s an incredibly tough decision for him, and I sort of wouldn’t expect him to.
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  lifeontwowheels April 29, 2008 6:44 pm

  Tigertree,

  I feel for you and the other business owners. My dad is a small business owner here in Columbus and I only hope that it works in the best interest of all.

  Just from my own personal experience, I have had a greater enjoyment getting around town and patronizing local businesses (both now and especially in the future) by foot and bicycle than by car. Moving back to the University District (more specifically, I am apparently moving to the Peach District) I will be far more likely to patronize SN businesses and others in the area without the car. Parking is too much of a headache and driving around the block 3-4 times with gas is unbearable. Pedestrian oriented development does have far reaching implications for business. Think window shoppers who would have no intention to stop at your store if driving by vs. those on foot who might be walking down High and see something that catches there eye. Much easier to stop and walk in for 5 minutes when you don’t have an investment in meter fees, the risk of being ticketed by the meter cops or in the gas used.
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  greenhouse1014 April 29, 2008 6:45 pm

  I guess it would be nice to see the SNBA leadin the way and speaking up for some of the concerns of the businesses. They should be able to do this without coming down on either side. At least start thinking of some sort of plan to deal with it. I think this would be the group of businesses coming together that otheres here have suggested. I just always thought that was the SNBA.
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  Tigertree April 29, 2008 6:49 pm

  The SNBA is definitely concerned about the way construction could impact business, and I am sure Jon will be as active as possible to ensure the impact is as minimal as possible once plans are actually being devised. I am just saying that it would be hard for him to take an official position to either endorse or fight the streetcar, considering the varying opinions of members.
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  greenhouse1014 April 29, 2008 6:52 pm

  you know, I see a lot of talk about meters being prohibitive to people coming into the SN. if I’m not mistaken, don’t those meters’ enforcement end at 6pm? It would seem like after 6pm is when most of the businesses in that area could use the most traffic since they lose the downtown population, for the most part, after 5pm. You could pretty much park free in the SN after 6pm and leisurely walk all over the place, spending lots of money. This is just one thing that kept sticking out to me.

  Pedestrian oriented development does have far reaching implications for business.

  The streetcar is not pedestrian oriented development. It is transportation oriented development, seemingly more geared towards moving people, not so much towards walking/biking. I’m just saying.
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  Coremodels April 29, 2008 6:57 pm

  BCOZ wrote Now if the Streetcar ONLY works on High street….then all your arguments fall apart and our concern that this is just a toy is probably justified.

  All the other starter lines connected attractions. The benefits of the High Street run are:

  1. Tourism. A 3% increase in convention business due to the streetcar line meets Danter’s projection of 90,000 new visitors and the jobs, hotel rooms, etc. that creates. Conventioners have a helluva lot more to do taking the streetcar up to the Short North or Campus Gateway or the Wex than they do east or west.

  2. Students. 65,000 of them and the money they can be spending in other areas of town with access to the line.

  3. Downtown employees wanting to get to restaurants/shopping during lunch/after work. Unless a whole lot of stores and restaurants opened up in Franklinton last night that I wasn’t aware of, clearly the N/S route does this best.

  Your closing sentence there was one of your most moronic to date…which is quite an accomplishment. No one is saying you could drop a streetcar in the middle of the desert and development shows up, they’re saying that putting it into a vital area of downtown connecting attractions…as we’re doing here…has resulted in success every single time.

  Again though, I firmly believe if the streetcar ran from campus or the Short North to say…Third Ave. in Grandview, you’d be on the other side of this argument all together.
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  Coremodels April 29, 2008 7:01 pm

  greenhouse1014 wrote The streetcar is not pedestrian oriented development. It is transportation oriented development, seemingly more geared towards moving people, not so much towards walking/biking. I’m just saying.

  I would disagree with this 100%, and in fact other cities have tied their streetcar stations to entire pedestrian mallways.

  http://www.portlandmall.org/about/index.htm

  or

  When Memphis decided to redevelop the mall, it realized transit had to be part of the solution. Buses running down the mall were considered, but rejected as incompatible with pedestrians. In 1990, the city decided a streetcar line was the solution

  or

  Pedestrian mall. Streetcars can share pedestrian-only spaces with foot traffic quite effectively. The fact that pedestrians know that the trolleys will not deviate from the rails combined with their relatively low speed leaves people comfortable sharing their space with trolleys. This approach is used by the heritage trolley system in Memphis and by tram and light rail lines in many European cities.