Streetcars to get public hearing next week
The Dispatch wrote
COLUMBUS City Council meeting - Streetcars to get public hearing next week
Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:06 AM
By Robert Vitale
Columbus City Council members complained last week that they’ve been left out of the loop on Mayor Michael B. Coleman’s streetcar plan.
Last night, they made the loop bigger.
The council will host its first public hearing next week on the $103 million proposal to build a 2.8-mile rail line between Downtown and Ohio State University. The council’s decision came in an impromptu debate at the end of the weekly meeting.
The day and time haven’t been firmed up, but Councilwoman Maryellen O’Shaughnessy said she wants the session to take place before the council votes on Coleman’s proposed 2008 capital budget.
That budget, which includes a $2 million request to begin design and engineering work for the streetcar line, is scheduled for council action on May 5.
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April 29th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
I don’t police the board while I’m eating dinner.
Core, the insults are unnecessary. Please keep it civil. I’m tired of having to play hall monitor here. Everyone needs to step back, take a deep breath, and state their opinions on the TOPIC without interjecting insults of any kind directed at each other.
PLEASE and THANK YOU.
April 29th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
edited - walker stepped in…
but people can choose who they respond to in any discussion on here. if someone is baiting on either side, just leave their opinion aside and they usually fade out.
April 29th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Couple quick points:
I personally dont care that Mayor Coleman left, because this was for City Council, but I do see why people are upset. The part that I find funny is that people seem to have ignored the fact that Councilwoman Tyson left at the same time. Wasn’t she one of the people that wanted public input and more information? Nice.
I love the idea of getting a people together to talk about this. I do feel we go in circles on here sometimes, so there needs to be differnt form of discussion.
Also I was kind of wondering what the common ground is for people. Such as:
Do we agree Columbus has a transportaion problem?
Do we agree that downtown Columbus needs something to spark developement?
Do we agree the bus system alone is not the answer?
One final point. It is hard to get everyone who is for the streetcar to speak up because most have already left for greener pastures. I’m not saying I think the streetcar is the cure all answer, but I will say I’m 100% sure we need to do something and we need to do it now. I would really like to hear other opinions on how to jumpstart the city.
April 29th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Wow! Now there’s some scientific, um, science.
April 29th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
This quote reminds me of what the artists have been saying about the Short North for awhile now. That they have been priced out and are not reaping the benefits from what they created. It would be really cool if Tigertree and other boutique stores were able to find a building along the proposed streetcar line that they could own together, and then they would be the ones that stood to directly gain from the streetcar benefit zone.
April 29th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Columbus has a transit issue. COTA is at a great point to begin repairing this issue and have begun the steps to do so. But too many stories pop up of missed buses, poor service and other issues. It is not a streamlined system and very inefficient-or so it seems. With 26 buses to choose from at Broad and High, navigating our current system (especially for visitors making a trip within that 4-5 mile radius of downtown) can be intimidating at the least.
It is really chicken and egg, a very twisted circle, when it comes to the redevelopment.
Mayor Coleman is pushing streetcars as a tool to revitalization to bring more downtown.
The public does not see the point, since, in their view, there is nothing downtown.
By and large our business community, so it would seem, has not made any effort to commit to bringing jobs downtown through relocation.
One has to give at some point and be the catalyst. Wouldn’t it be great to see Wexner or another major Columbus community bring its headquarters downtown?
Since Columbus has been shown to be one, if not the only, of the major cities without light rail. Light rail and bus co-exist very well in a multitude of cities (DC, NY and Chicago all come to mind) to provide a multi-modal network of transit.
April 29th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
There is plenty of space in strip malls with plenty of free parking that stores can move to if they think the streetcar is such a terrible idea. I think that new strip mall on Fifth with the Papa Johns is open. Geez.
April 29th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Tigertree, I love to see that you are calling businesses that have already lived through this. That is being proactive and getting some real answers. Nice work.
April 29th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
I’ll tell you what, if I saw, even two major businesses express interest in moving downtown as part of its development, it will sell me a lot more on this. Has anyone heard anything at all from any kind of major business saying that they’re looking at moving downtown? Does anyone have any thoughts on who might move downtown? Limited is way too big and there’s no way they’re giving up that big beautiful black box. A lot of other major business players have just built buildings on the outskirts. I don’t know, I just can’t think of anyone who might move into one of those office buildings. Or are we thinking retail? you gotta have population to have retail. At least the SN has population that lives close. downtown doesn’t have many residential options within acceptable walking distance to the line where I would think most retail would try to get to. I’m just trying to figure out what the development might look like.
April 29th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
probably plenty of space in those other cities that already have rail, too.
nice attitude.
April 29th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
Oh yeah, that reminds me. Can we get a commitment in writing here from those folks who said in that other thread that they would leave Columbus if we can’t have rail?
Just asking.
April 29th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
WHEWWW!!!
It always takes me forever to catch up with these threads, and I’m a slow reader to begin with… :lol:
Welcome back, greenhouse. Come back Columbuzz.
I agree with Surber that we should find common ground. It would help to move the debate forward and clear the air. I think most agree that Columbus needs to:
a) spur in-fill development
b) increase alternative transportation options
c) support existing businesses
d) foster economic growth
e) follow fiscally responsible paths
It seems many people are simply against the plan as it now stands and are for streetcars and rail in Columbus in some form. With all these things in mind, we should focus our discussions on how to influence the city’s course so that people who agree on the broader goals above can come together on this plan. In other words, without consensus, compromise and trust between all parties, this project could be doomed to failure, in the worst case. More likely, it would simply result in a less than optimal solution which leaves a bad taste in everyone’s mouth and delays what should be an inevitable mass transit system in Columbus. Nobody wants that. Let’s be constructive.
I’m curious to see what kind of constructive solutions to people’s concerns we can come up with. I believe discussions of alternative, parallel streets for the primary N-S corridor are a good place to start. There are a bunch of passionate, smart people on CU who should pull in the same direction (once we figure out what that is) and not go at each other.
Cheers! :)
April 29th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Thank you UncommonSense, I know my post was one of the last ones to read…..glad you made it :) And I agree with you completely. What is our common strength on here? We have a large number of people who care about this city. Also, nearly everyone on here is rational and seems willing to compromise. If we were to step up at the next Council meeting with a plan instead of just a gripe and maybe a couple thousand (that might be a lot) signatures backing it, I think we can all get what we want. Some points I’ve seen with some possible answers:
1) everyone wants to be connected and have easy access
- go with the starter line now but have a 5 year plan to expand based on public outcry. The larger plan does need to be there though.
2) disrupt business as little as possible
- tough, but I think do-able. We def. need to find out from other cities how long traffic was diverted in front of existing businesses. Maybe that’s why Portland ran it through some undeveloped land as to not hurt the existing businesses?
3) have this compliment cota and how is this different
- need to do a better job at showing why this will be better for downtown than the current bus system. I think the info. for this is out there, but needs to be shown in a different way
etc. (I’ll stop as this could get very long, but you get my point)
April 29th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
One I thing I agreed with from the forum was the need to create more than just service industry, minimum wage jobs. There is a need to create viable, living wage jobs in our urban city to better the communities.
As to which business, who knows?
April 29th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
I needed to quote the two above comments because they seem to illustrate a basic problem within this discussion. From how I interpret these comments, Greenhouse fears that the promises of downtown redevelopment will not occur even if the streetcar project is implemented. CBJTiger argues that the city is placing the streetcar into a corridor in where development was already going to happen, whether the public transit was installed or not.
Could you guys figure out what argument you are using, so that I can appropriately discuss?
April 30th, 2008 at 1:41 am
[url]http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/tcrp/tcrp_rpt_123.pdf[/url]
This is a study of the Transportation Research Board. I believe the summary of the study on pages 131, 132, and 133 should be enlightening to many of the readers of this thread. I think it addresses many of the concerns voiced here.
Some of the items that I gleaned from this report [I added the bold]:
-”market mass transit to the sectors of the population most likely to use it.”
-”…it will be difficult to significantly change beliefs about riding public transit with public policy messages alone. More emphasis will need to be placed on supplementing messages with a suite of services that enhance the transit riding experience.”
-”Some features of a Compact Neighborhood were of greater importantance to this sample of respondents than other features. The most important belief was that it would be easier to get to stores, restaurants, libraries, and other activities if one were living in a Compact Neighborhood.”
-”Individuals who have never used public transportation or who use it rarely tend not to consider public transportation as a viable alternative for their transportation needs.”
I think that the results of the research indicate that creating a reliable suite of transit options will increase ridership of mass transit overall. It recommends marketing mass transit to those riders most likely to use mass transit. I think these findings support the idea that creating a starter line for Columbus linking the neighborhoods most likely to use public transportation is a good public policy decision.
edited for formatting errors
April 30th, 2008 at 5:06 am
Unless something significant happens on my end. Sure thing. It’d probably be around 2015 though.
April 30th, 2008 at 8:02 am
I’m not really arguing. I’m asking a question.
April 30th, 2008 at 8:02 am
I wasn’t being totally serious. I don’t want any of you folks to go anywhere.
April 30th, 2008 at 8:18 am
So….
If I take the gloves off I can see that there are only 2 posters who would support a Broad St. streetcar instead of a High St streetcar.
Broad St is hardly “the middle of a desert” as Coremodels put it. In fact it’s the most traveled stret in Columbus and also the one with the greatest opportunity to change blight to bright if the streetcar is the guaranteed boon you all claim it to be.
And so to the rest of you who claimed you want the streetcar for the sake of Columbus’ economic development: congrats! You’re either a liar or a hypocrite. Sure, you dressed it up with your studies and alleged civic-minded altruism…but you really wanted a drunken ride from Betty’s to whatever new bar opened up on the track.
So while you agonize over the loss of your bar-hopping toy train, remember that it is likely that being transparent and disrespectful of those who merely questioned it is what did you in. The public gives you a voice, so when you wish to be heard, please try to avoid:
“Old coot”"
“Moron”
Grow up CU clique. You’ll accomplish nothing until you do.
April 30th, 2008 at 8:26 am
^^ I’d like one that is easily accessible by college students and can frequently be used by them as well (especially since I am one and could see a huge benefit of connecting a line that could hook up everywhere from downtown north).
I have lots of “ideas” as to why college students should have an easy access and developed route to downtown, but none of them are beyond an actual “hunch” and I don’t use those to make formal arguments.
I’m neither a liar or a hypocrite, I just prefer that my development be pipelined in to the next generation of College educated people who could possibly call Columbus home.
April 30th, 2008 at 8:29 am
I would be happy with light rail anywhere in this city. I would actually probably be happier with the heavy rail coming first, using the existing right of ways and building up a commuter network to the suburbs. As the North Corridor project showed, that isn’t going to happen in this town. At least not yet.
I think High Street is a better location for a starter line because of the number of things connected. All provided that the issues of redundancy with COTA are addressed along that stretch. High St also serves as a jumping off point for future rail projects. Many have stated that they like the idea of using existing rail lines, that are connected to the suburbs, as commuter routes. Most of these come into the convention center. So if we build up a track along Broad, how do we then jump to commuter rail, if there is nothing to move people (unless COTA changes drastically) along that corridor?
High provides a greater chance for ridership, which increases the likelihood of success. Even if those numbers are bar hoppers and tourists, as long as it generates revenue and meets or succeed a benchmark that is laid out, we could claim success and begin the next phase.
April 30th, 2008 at 8:56 am
I would totally get behind a Broad st line. Perhaps up broad and down Main.
I do think the high st line makes sense too, but dammit we SHOULD build both and keep going. Extend the high line to groveport, the broad line E to W to both ends…run a line from high down goodale and up northwest blvd through arlington (so I can ride without having to take the 5 bus to high!), run one in from hillard on cemetary/fishinger up north broadway from a P&R at kenny rd over to lindon. Dont forget Morse rd, dublin-granville, hamilton rd connected to the broad line, Central ave also connected to the broad line (now THAT is an area that needs better mass tranist).
at this point I refer y’all to the “fantasy columbus metro map” thread over in the general section.
April 30th, 2008 at 8:58 am
You’re mischaracterizing our arguments. No one ever said that you could put a streetcar anywhere and development would follow like magic. Placement matters. It matters a lot. The reason the High St. line is the best has nothing to do with bar-hopping; I haven’t stayed out that late more than three nights in the last six months. I’ve also been explicitly arguing *against* greenhouse in this and other threads on the notion that what we really need is COTA service into the post-bar hours rather than a streetcar in the primetime hours. The streetcar would be perfectly fine if its hours ran no later than the existing COTA hours (though hopefully more frequently during the late evening).
Keep in mind that the streetcar is meant as a people circulator, not a commuter system.
If I thought there were any credible evidence that Broad St. line would actually see more use than a High St. line, I’d be all for starting the line on Broad. I see no such evidence, so I don’t support changing the plan. It’s that simple. Accusations of hypocrisy are baseless, mean-spirited, and unproductive.
April 30th, 2008 at 9:00 am
I mean broad AND main, not one train for both. Sorry.