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COLUMBUS City Council meeting – Streetcars to get public hearing next week
Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:06 AM
By Robert Vitale
Columbus City Council members complained last week that they’ve been left out of the loop on Mayor Michael B. Coleman’s streetcar plan.
Last night, they made the loop bigger.
The council will host its first public hearing next week on the $103 million proposal to build a 2.8-mile rail line between Downtown and Ohio State University. The council’s decision came in an impromptu debate at the end of the weekly meeting.
The day and time haven’t been firmed up, but Councilwoman Maryellen O’Shaughnessy said she wants the session to take place before the council votes on Coleman’s proposed 2008 capital budget.
That budget, which includes a $2 million request to begin design and engineering work for the streetcar line, is scheduled for council action on May 5.
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Streetcars to get public hearing next week
By: lazyfish
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OK…so lemme ask this:
If the pro-streetcar folk are as truly altruistic and civic minded as you say…
The vast majority post that it’s not a transportation project, it’s a revitalization/economic development project
If our best “right now” option is a 2.8 mile single track to revitalize development….shouldn’t that track be laid down on Broad St.?
There are more office workers on Broad than High…there are blighted and underdeveloped properties in nearby E and W Broad areas.
The SN doesn’t need revitalization: it’s hot and growing. Hell, McD’s wants to go to the SN!
So how about it streetcar fans? Can you read your own rhetoric, embrace it and support the beginning of streetcars and its guaranteed economic revitalization with a streetcar on the new, hip and happening Broad St????
What was his (Lhota’s) answer? It should have been the ungodly cost escalation we’ve been seeing in the commodities and labor markets over the last 5 years.
really? Can you show me where the Danter report states this please? I have it open, just refer me to the appropriate page.
for the record, you calling anyone “prophet” is laughable, as king of the magic 8 ball.
I will check it when I go home and I’ll quote it exactly.
oh, and please know that I’m having a little fun with this now, so I may be a little flip at times. And I LOVE the Magic 8-ball, but mine has a common sense button and a logic button, and an anti-kool-aid function and is a nice shiny color…
If the pro-streetcar folk are as truly altruistic and civic minded as you say…
The vast majority post that it’s not a transportation project, it’s a revitalization/economic development project
If our best “right now” option is a 2.8 mile single track to revitalize development….shouldn’t that track be laid down on Broad St.?
There are more office workers on Broad than High…there are blighted and underdeveloped properties in nearby E and W Broad areas.
The SN doesn’t need revitalization: it’s hot and growing. Hell, McD’s wants to go to the SN!
So how about it streetcar fans? Can you read your own rhetoric, embrace it and support the beginning of streetcars and its guaranteed economic revitalization with a streetcar on the new, hip and happening Broad St????
but then OSU wouldn’t be kicking in money
okay, i am taking too much offense. but i’m not letting it slide.
speaking of flaming – since i was the only one that responded back on page 13 and answered the question about a wider plan, thanks for giving my response a vote of 1/2 intelligence. i’ll try to find where you responded to it to further that particular discussion to keep this thread on track.
and yes “intelligently” is a word, or actually an adverb. i used my 1/2 intelligence to answer that.
as for new projections to replace the Dantler ones, that is why the Council needs to fund the study. the study should have these targets, and i’ll be the first supporter to say it needs to have these benchmarks in order to be viable.
If the pro-streetcar folk are as truly altruistic and civic minded as you say…
The vast majority post that it’s not a transportation project, it’s a revitalization/economic development project
If our best “right now” option is a 2.8 mile single track to revitaluze development….shouldn’t that rack be laid down on Broad St.?
There are more office workers on Broad than High…there are blighted and underdeveloped properties in mearby E and W Broad areas.
The SN doesn’t need revitalization: it’s hot and growing. Hell, McD’s wants to go to the SN!
So how about it streetcar fans? Can you read your own rhetoric, embrace it and support the beginning of streetcars and its guaranteed economic revitalization with a streetcar on the new, hip and happening Broad St????
No. Because initial ridership will be terrible until the Broad St. corridor had a chance to densify around the streetcar line. It will be deemed a failure, and the “starter line” will become the “only line”. ever.
The High St. line has a good mix of uses and vacant/developable properties. It has a solid chance at success and will hopefully prove to be a launching pad for a regional multi-modal transit system.
[quote="Brewmaster"] No. Because initial ridership will be terrible until the Broad St. corridor had a chance to densify around the streetcar line. It will be deemed a failure, and the “starter line” will become the “only line”. ever. [quote]
Thank you for providing the same argument the anti-High St streeetcar folks have been making (or questions we are asking)…for (general) you to poop on ;)
Sucess of ANY streetcar depends on ridership…and I see the exact same problem (and sad result) with the High Street plan.
Thank you for providing the same argument the anti-High St streeetcar folks have been making (or questions we are asking)…for (general) you to poop on ;)
Sucess of ANY streetcar depends on ridership…and I see the exact same problem (and sad result) with the High Street plan.
But you anti-streetcar folks are just assuming that it’ll be a failure as a justification for inaction.
[quote="BCOZ"]
Thank you for providing the same argument the anti-High St streeetcar folks have been making (or questions we are asking)…for (general) you to poop on ;)
Sucess of ANY streetcar depends on ridership…and I see the exact same problem (and sad result) with the High Street plan.
i’d prefer to see the High line first, and then have a second intersecting line that connected down Broad (at least Franklin Park to Mt Carmel), although the Scioto crossing would probably be costly. i think it would be great for the development of OTE & Franklinton + an added boost to the Museum, Cosi, Veterans + draw in CCAD and CSCC + increase the general movement of a city workforce. but i think that line would need the corresponding north/south axis.
likewise:
if it had both, would some of the non-supporters be in?
Thank you for providing the same argument the anti-High St streeetcar folks have been making (or questions we are asking)…for (general) you to poop on ;)
Sucess of ANY streetcar depends on ridership…and I see the exact same problem (and sad result) with the High Street plan.
But you anti-streetcar folks are just assuming that it’ll be a failure as a justification for inaction.
NO!!!!!!!!!
And this is one of the CU problms: mind reading.
We don’t WANT a failure so we’re asking questions. Your answers do not work for us, that’s all.
By your own argument, you should be all for the Broad St. streetcar due to the 22 other cities that it worked for…and NOT building it on Broad right away because YOU say it won’t work could be justification for inaction.
It’s the same freaking argument…just E-W and not N-S
If the pro-streetcar folk are as truly altruistic and civic minded as you say…
The vast majority post that it’s not a transportation project, it’s a revitalization/economic development project
If our best “right now” option is a 2.8 mile single track to revitalize development….shouldn’t that track be laid down on Broad St.?
There are more office workers on Broad than High…there are blighted and underdeveloped properties in nearby E and W Broad areas.
The SN doesn’t need revitalization: it’s hot and growing. Hell, McD’s wants to go to the SN!
So how about it streetcar fans? Can you read your own rhetoric, embrace it and support the beginning of streetcars and its guaranteed economic revitalization with a streetcar on the new, hip and happening Broad St????
By that logic, shouldn’t we put it on Parsons?
The whole point is to get *ridership.* High is the most crowded artery we’ve got. This is not to say I’d be against a Broad line, or a Broad-Main loop … I’d be all for it as a second line. However, as I believe you said yourself, the first line has got to succeed or there won’t be a second. I won’t argue that point.
The proposed line goes through a good mix of developed and underdeveloped; office, entertainment, mixed use, and residential; and reasonably high density throughout. The Broad line would not just avoid campus. It would avoid the Arena District & convention center and the county complex, including the new courthouse. The Arena District/convention center area is particularly crucial both because of the funding plan and because that’s likely to be the source of a tremendous amount of ridership.
What would we pick up by adding Broad? We’d get COSI and Vets Memorial, but those don’t cover the loss of Nationwide and GCCC. We’d get the Motorists building and a couple of other towers a little far from High to walk. We’d get Capital Law School. In terms of major sources of ridership, however, I think campus and the Arena District are going to be the two trump cards. I’d be more than happy to sponsor a more scientific study of what else we might sweep in with a different placement, but I also think that the sheer volume of foot traffic in those two locations makes this something of a common sense call.
Thank you for providing the same argument the anti-High St streeetcar folks have been making (or questions we are asking)…for (general) you to poop on ;)
Sucess of ANY streetcar depends on ridership…and I see the exact same problem (and sad result) with the High Street plan.
But you anti-streetcar folks are just assuming that it’ll be a failure as a justification for inaction.
NO!!!!!!!!!
And this is one of the CU problms: mind reading.
We don’t WANT a failure so we’re asking questions. Your answers do not work for us, that’s all.
By your own argument, you should be all for the Broad St. streetcar due to the 22 other cities that it worked for…and NOT building it on Broad right away because YOU say it won’t work could be justification for inaction.
It’s the same freaking argument…just E-W and not N-S
Mind reading or not…that’s how it comes across.
It’s hard to argue that the Broad St. line would be a better starting point than the High St. line. It doesn’t pass the Convention Center, OSU, and the most vibrant urban neighbohrood we’ve got. It doesn’t really give people a reason to ride it. It would be purely speculative and depend on development occurring years down the road…all the while…the Colubusites with the toxic attitudes would be relishing in it’s defeat.
If the pro-streetcar folk are as truly altruistic and civic minded as you say…
The vast majority post that it’s not a transportation project, it’s a revitalization/economic development project
If our best “right now” option is a 2.8 mile single track to revitalize development….shouldn’t that track be laid down on Broad St.?
There are more office workers on Broad than High…there are blighted and underdeveloped properties in nearby E and W Broad areas.
The SN doesn’t need revitalization: it’s hot and growing. Hell, McD’s wants to go to the SN!
So how about it streetcar fans? Can you read your own rhetoric, embrace it and support the beginning of streetcars and its guaranteed economic revitalization with a streetcar on the new, hip and happening Broad St???? Yes, I would prefer it, and think it would do great things for the redevelopment of the East and West sides of town. However, I would like it on Long St, Oak or Main Street rather than Broad. Broad I would want turned back into a BLVD.
my quote from a while back
I think you rather made my point of why there should be more of a focus on revitalizing Olde Towne or Franklinton rather than Short North or German Village. SN and GV do not need government help in revitalization (e.g. thriving businesses and wealthy residents are taking over). I would say their focus should be retaining affordable housing and diversity now that they are gentrified.
It’s a shame that not more people go over “that way†more frequently. The main reasons people don’t go over “that way†(other than suburbanites being scared) more I believe are:
1. Olde Towne, more than any other area, had its housing stock and commercial districts reduced by the freeways.
2. The freeways played a major role in the isolation of Olde Towne from the city.
3. Historically Olde Towne has had a disproportionate amount of social services (e.g. half-way houses, nursing homes, drug rehabs) to other parts of the city with little attention to improvement to infrastructure.
The results of these three things are what you see on Main now. If Olde Towne didn’t have these three unjust things happen it would be in much better shape. However, since it did I believe justice dictates that a larger or equal proportion of the money goes to the areas more historically disadvantaged.
W Broad sees 23K cars/day…high st N of Nwide blvd 19.5K
Brewmaster…you continue to say Broad St Streetcar will fail.
Haven’t you seen the 22 reports that show it will be a success?? It’s 22-0!! The streetcar WILL bring economic development. It WILL bring jobs. IT IS GUARANTEED…and at no point have these arguments had a specific location requirement.
Haven’t you been reading your comrades points??
Now if the Streetcar ONLY works on High street….then all your arguments fall apart and our concern that this is just a toy is probably justified.
I know I am beating the same dead horse but..
I have started to call stores around the country, in cities that house streetcars and interestingly enough, none of the stores I have spoken to thus far have been any help because everyone open in the neighborhood came AFTER the streetcar.
Brewmaster…you continue to say Broad St Strretcar will fail.
Haven’t you seen the 22 reportsd that show it will be a success?? It’s 22-0!! The streetcar WILL bring economic development. It WILL bring jobs. IT IS GUARANTEED…and at no point have these arguments had a specific location requirement.
Haven’t you been reading your comrades points??
Now if the Streetcar ONLY works on High street….then all your arguments fall apart and our concern that this is just a toy is probably justified.
Would it be more justifiable to say that the previous examples have succeeded in stimulating economic development by providing a stable transportation alternative between points that would encourage people to use it? That those cities had the vision to link together the right points, but had they not linked them the economic benefits would not have followed?
As I said 39+ pages back, I see ridership and ecomomic development as a combined justification. I also think it needs a Broad (or E-W) line.
Brewmaster…you continue to say Broad St Streetcar will fail.
Haven’t you seen the 22 reports that show it will be a success?? It’s 22-0!! The streetcar WILL bring economic development. It WILL bring jobs. IT IS GUARANTEED…and at no point have these arguments had a specific location requirement.
Haven’t you been reading your comrades points??
Now if the Streetcar ONLY works on High street….then all your arguments fall apart and our concern that this is just a toy is probably justified.
I really don’t see how you’re getting from Point A to Point B here, and I’m willing to bet that none of those other lines began with nothing on their lines that people would want to ride either to or from; in fact, sight unseen, I’m willing to take on faith that they were built where they believed they would maximize ridership. I fail to see how this is an argument against the streetcar, or an argument that it’s just a “toy.” Call it whatever you want, but most toys don’t pay for themselves and then some in other tangible benefits to one’s home.
I have started to call stores around the country, in cities that house streetcars and interestingly enough, none of the stores I have spoken to thus far have been any help because everyone open in the neighborhood came AFTER the streetcar.
just out of curiosity, what if it went up 4th and down Summit as a loop? i’ve always liked this idea, as it would be proximate to High and still hit the campus area, but would bring in areas slightly more in need of development.
better route? or still not justifiable?
I would be way more into that. I think that would actually foster economic development. It would cause a pretty undeveloped route as well as the branches between those streets and high.
In fact, that has seemed like a more viable solution to me the whole time. If the city is going to keep using the artery analogy then I might as well use it. Clogging your artery for 2 years with no life support is a bad idea.