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COLUMBUS City Council meeting – Streetcars to get public hearing next week
Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:06 AM
By Robert Vitale
Columbus City Council members complained last week that they’ve been left out of the loop on Mayor Michael B. Coleman’s streetcar plan.
Last night, they made the loop bigger.
The council will host its first public hearing next week on the $103 million proposal to build a 2.8-mile rail line between Downtown and Ohio State University. The council’s decision came in an impromptu debate at the end of the weekly meeting.
The day and time haven’t been firmed up, but Councilwoman Maryellen O’Shaughnessy said she wants the session to take place before the council votes on Coleman’s proposed 2008 capital budget.
That budget, which includes a $2 million request to begin design and engineering work for the streetcar line, is scheduled for council action on May 5.
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Streetcars to get public hearing next week
By: lazyfish
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I am linking these 2 quotes together, apologies if they do not coordinate.
But in offering evidence to counter this, please look at Tampa. The original line connected Ybor City to the Channelside District. It’s main critique has been that it failed to connect two population centers (they’re just now extending it into downtown). After initially exceeding projections, ridership has not been growing too greatly because they put it into ‘areas that people don’t already use’. But over 1 billion has been invested in the corridor (about 700m private, 600m public) since the streetcar was built.
I went to last nights meeting against the street car but with an open mind. I asked questions that I thought, if answered, could ease my mind a bit and win me over. I went being primarily worried that the estimation of two years was wishful thinking and that, like any city construction project, would take far longer. I left being completely opposed and realizing that the mayor is so hell bent on meeting a deadline the wake of failed businesses doesn’t matter. We don’t matter. Niki and I don’t matter. Sole Classics, Collier West, Rowe, Ivy Hill, Fibres…. If we go in to bankruptcy, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t matter to the city. We’ll be replaced by others that will provide the same tax revenue. Even if those others are Gap, Banana Republic and Old Navy.
ttree- I thought I heard a quote that a block of track could be laid in 2-3mos., leaving that block useful before and after until construction was complete. so Buttles to Hubbard would be 2-3 mos. would that literally close down all of these businesses? you know the bottom line, i don’t.
i also don’t see how this would not encourage people from downtown and campus to converge around Buttles and shop? i obviously can’t prove it, but i fail to see how this convenience would dissuade downtown shopping, rather I think it would encourage it instead of jumping in the car and heading to easton.
i also fail to see how it would lead to a banana republic on the corner of high and hubbard (i personally hate the ‘bananification’ trump card that every discussion about the SN ends up in.)
And this is where you lose me all together…
You argue that the only evidence that exists is tainted…because it supports our position…
You disagree with our position based on no evidence whatsoever other than literal guesses such as “other factors caused the development” even though you can’t cite those factors, can’t show a single source affirming it.
So again, in conclusion…all the evidence in support of streetcars is fabricated, and although there is no evidence against them I’m sure that I’m right.
Bullshit. I said, and continue to say, nothing of that sort and you know it.
I do not argue that “the only evidence that exists is tainted…because it supports our position…”
I do not disagree with your position “based on no evidence whatsoever other than literal guesses such as ‘other factors caused the development’ even though you can’t cite those factors, can’t show a single source affirming it.”
I do not believe “all the evidence in support of streetcars is fabricated, and although there is no evidence against them I’m sure that I’m right.”
That’s a very low, very petty way to try to dumb down what I said.
I argue that the evidence you keep throwing in my face, I have some doubts about.
I don’t have the answers to the questions I’m asking – that’s why I’m asking them. These were questions the Danter study and others should have addressed. They didn’t and any negatives were either glossed over or, quite possibly, omitted.
But who knows? You damned well know I can’t “cite those factors” nor “show a single source affirming it” because it doesn’t fucking exist – Danter and the other pro-streetcar salesmen’s faults.
What started off as a bit of skepticism about a report has now amounted to full-on hatred of all pro-streetcar people because they’re too close-minded to understand what’s being said by their counterparts.
But acting like you and others have is not going to get anything accomplished and I’m absolutely against a rush-job that everyone so profusely wants on this board.
I have listened, read, understood and respected both sides. But now I’m done respecting the pro-streetcar point of view.
So, you know what? I’m done, this is my last post. This whole entire board has pretty much turned one-sided and what brought me here to begin with was the different views and news about the city. That’s starting to go away, unfortunately.
Now it seems to be filled with people who all share the same views and like to belittle and degrade someone because they don’t understand what s/he is saying. That’s an old elementary school game played by bullies and I’m not playing. I don’t feel dumb, I feel sorry that you lack the necessary intelligence to grasp what’s being said.
So, go ahead and keep paraphrasing and dumbing down people’s arguments to make yourself feel better and smarter. I don’t care anymore.
And, P.S., thanks for making me seem like a dick.
So, you know what? I’m done, this is my last post. This whole entire board has pretty much turned one-sided and what brought me here to begin with was the different views and news about the city. That’s starting to go away, unfortunately.
Now it seems to be filled with people who all share the same views and like to belittle and degrade someone because they don’t understand what s/he is saying. That’s an old elementary school game played by bullies and I’m not playing. I don’t feel dumb, I feel sorry that you lack the necessary intelligence to grasp what’s being said.
Columbuzz. You and I have disagreed on casinos, we obviously disagree on this. I don’t however understand why naysayers (in this forum) feel so isolated in these arguments and state CU is slanted and signs-off? in this thread alone, we’ve had:
Yourself
BCOZ
Tigertree
JonMyers
CBJTiger17
greenhouse
and probably a few others either arguing against streetcars or displaying skepticism. I’d say it’s at least 1/3 against or skeptical. It’s kept the thread going, it’s fostered debate. It’s obviously a heated discussion and in the end I don’t think anyone is really changing anyone’s mind on this board. However I don’t think that changes the nature of the board in a broad sense.
Grand Visions
highways-connect places that weren’t already connected for the benefit of transporting people or products, thereby increasing economic development in several areas.
courthouse-well, ok, I’m with on that.
police presence-I think protecting the innocent and upholding and enforcing the law is a pretty good grand vision.
streetcar-development we think, I mean, really, it will happen, but we’re not guaranteeing it, but really, it will happen. Oh, what do we do after the starter line? I don’t know. What benchmarks denote success or at least say when it’s ok to build more lines.
Yeah, I guess that’s a good question-what are teh benchmarks that denote success of teh line and how do we know when its time tobuild more lines?
And this is where you lose me all together…
You argue that the only evidence that exists is tainted…because it supports our position…
You disagree with our position based on no evidence whatsoever other than literal guesses such as “other factors caused the development” even though you can’t cite those factors, can’t show a single source affirming it.
So again, in conclusion…all the evidence in support of streetcars is fabricated, and although there is no evidence against them I’m sure that I’m right.
Bullshit. I said, and continue to say, nothing of that sort and you know it.
I do not argue that “the only evidence that exists is tainted…because it supports our position…”
I do not disagree with your position “based on no evidence whatsoever other than literal guesses such as ‘other factors caused the development’ even though you can’t cite those factors, can’t show a single source affirming it.”
I do not believe “all the evidence in support of streetcars is fabricated, and although there is no evidence against them I’m sure that I’m right.”
That’s a very low, very petty way to try to dumb down what I said.
I argue that the evidence you keep throwing in my face, I have some doubts about.
I don’t have the answers to the questions I’m asking – that’s why I’m asking them. These were questions the Danter study and others should have addressed. They didn’t and any negatives were either glossed over or, quite possibly, omitted.
But who knows? You damned well know I can’t “cite those factors” nor “show a single source affirming it” because it doesn’t fucking exist – Danter and the other pro-streetcar salesmen’s faults.
What started off as a bit of skepticism about a report has now amounted to full-on hatred of all pro-streetcar people because they’re too close-minded to understand what’s being said by their counterparts.
But acting like you and others have is not going to get anything accomplished and I’m absolutely against a rush-job that everyone so profusely wants on this board.
I have listened, read, understood and respected both sides. But now I’m done respecting the pro-streetcar point of view.
So, you know what? I’m done, this is my last post. This whole entire board has pretty much turned one-sided and what brought me here to begin with was the different views and news about the city. That’s starting to go away, unfortunately.
Now it seems to be filled with people who all share the same views and like to belittle and degrade someone because they don’t understand what s/he is saying. That’s an old elementary school game played by bullies and I’m not playing. I don’t feel dumb, I feel sorry that you lack the necessary intelligence to grasp what’s being said.
So, go ahead and keep paraphrasing and dumbing down people’s arguments to make yourself feel better and smarter. I don’t care anymore.
And, P.S., thanks for making me seem like a dick.
um…bye?
The two to three months will hurt us badly, not kill us. A severe dent in traffic patterns for 2 years will. People avoid construction. The first few times it will be a diversion onto third or neil, and maybe they will pop back over. Eventually they’ll start out on third or neil. The loss of these impressions will be detrimental.
As for the economic impact. I will reinstate what I said last night. The main source of this impact is meant to be OSU students. The average discretionary income for college students is 211 dollars per month. That doesn’t stretch too far here. Bars with killer happy hours might see a boost, but most of us won’t. I wish I had access to (the data as well as) what Zettler said, but it was something along the lines of “almost none of the economic impact from street cars goes to retail.”
And the idea that people are going to drive in from the suburbs, park downtown, hop onto the streetcar and ride it to the Short North is absurd. They might do it once as a novelty, but it’s no solution.
I have a feeling that part of those studies doesn’t take into consideration well enough which came first, the economic development or the streetcar. Obviously you want to put the streetcar in a good location that already has been somewhat developed, so doesn’t it seem to reason that development would continue in that area with or without the added streetcar. I’m not saying that it would have no impact, but to attribute the entire impact to the streetcar is far from the truth.
I have been saying this for a long time, but no one here wants to listen. But, you can try it again if you want :)
I have seen those studies and they do not really answer the “which came first, the chicken or the egg” question. They briefly touch on it, but it’s hard to say either way. The sales pitch, er, I mean, studies all seem to want to say the development followed the streetcar route.
In Portland, they put together a streetcar proposal years before they even broke ground. A lot can happen and in the areas that they considered putting the streetcar, a lot of development occured. Then the streetcar really came around in conjunction with that development. So, who’s to say what caused what, really. Was it in the right place at the right time, or did developers say, “let’s build up this area because there might possibly be a streetcar here soon.” If you interview them now, their 20/20 hindsight will say, “we saw the streetcar coming and decided it would be a good investment.” If you interviewed them at the time they actually developed, who knows what they would have said.
Really, the development could have been from a completely different variable that we don’t offer here in Columbus. If that’s the case, we need to find out what that variable is.
Let’s open the Holy Tome of Danter and see what the profits (oops, I mean Prophets) have to say on teh matter. Well, from a good reading, it basically says that the railcar were NOT the stated reason that economic development happend. If anything, overall, the railcar was said to have been an amenity, not a cause, which is why they also go on to say that TOP is a NECESSITY in this effort, and we have not seen that.
Yeah, I guess that’s a good question-what are teh benchmarks that denote success of teh line and how do we know when its time tobuild more lines?
The Danter report will obviously need to be revised, because the 3 lines that were proposed in the report have been merged into 1 main line. But it currently contains, and the final report should contain, estimates on projected ridership and an economic development report. As a supporter, I’d be comfortable arguing that those final stats should be met before expansion.
like to see that evidence
really? Can you show me where the Danter report states this please? I have it open, just refer me to the appropriate page.
for the record, you calling anyone “prophet” is laughable, as king of the magic 8 ball.
1. We recognize that 22 streetcars were built, and 22 cities saw development such as:
* Little Rock, Arkansas (pop. 184,000) implemented a new system in 2004. $200 Million in direct development has been generated to date. Currently, 118,000 people ride the modern streetcar in Little Rock a year.
* Tampa, Florida (pop. 326,000) implemented a new system in 2003. $1 Billion in direct redevelopment has been generated to date. Currently, 434,500 people ride the modern streetcar in Tampa a year.
* Portland, Oregon (pop. 556,000) implemented a new system in 2001. $2.2 Billion in direct redevelopment has been generated to date. Since the streetcar was implemented, mass transit rider ship has increased 87%.
…
just asking, but how similar to the Columbus plan are each of these lines? Did they start small like we are and how long before they added extra lines that would generate the current ridership numbers you’re talking about? Did any of the lines go up and down a street for only 2.8 miles or whatever it is? Or did they encompas a wider area and go past places where people actually lived? Oh, I’m talking about living on teh line, not a block or two over (just for clarification of teh similarities)
Walker, can we get a “go to page” option for some of these long ass threads?
Kenosha: 1.7 miles
Little Rock: 2.5 miles
Tampa: 2.4 miles
Portland: 4.8 mile loop, 3.6 mile route. (as of 2006, started as 2.4)
From what I understand Portland started with 4.8 miles of track at a cost of 57 million dollars. The Columbus proposal is 2.8 miles at a cost of 103 million dollars. Lahota’s answer last night regarding a question on the cost discrepancies was unsatisfactory in my opinion, further eroding my confidence in the project.
As for the economic impact. I will reinstate what I said last night. The main source of this impact is meant to be OSU students. The average discretionary income for college students is 211 dollars per month. That doesn’t stretch too far here. Bars with killer happy hours might see a boost, but most of us won’t. I wish I had access to (the data as well as) what Zettler said, but it was something along the lines of “almost none of the economic impact from street cars goes to retail.”
And the idea that people are going to drive in from the suburbs, park downtown, hop onto the streetcar and ride it to the Short North is absurd. They might do it once as a novelty, but it’s no solution.
A 2004 Harris Interactive poll determined that college students have 13k in spending money annually. That’s $1083 a month, of which $211 is discretionary.
[url]http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NEWS/allnewsbydate.asp?NewsID=835[/url]
The same data you pull from also states “students spend more than $5 billion a year on clothes and shoes.”
[url]http://www.stateuniversity.com/blog/permalink/The-Spending-Habits-of-College-Students.html[/url] i sure don’t have $211 to spend per month on clothes. i’d want a piece of that. and correct me if i am wrong, but you once posted on these pages about ‘how to attract OSU students to your store.’ i’m fine that you don’t believe this is the answer, or this answer would hurt more than it would help. but is’s obviously a market that needs to be brought down High.
I won’t argue against that last point, my argument is not that it would bring in people from the ‘burbs, but it would retain people who already live or who are visiting downtown from the university district to the brewery district to stay downtown. in response to Zettler’s premise (which was one of the more articulate points of the night), i personally thought the opposite. if i need screws, pipe tape, a new padlock i could hop the streetcar and then walk 2 blocks to his shop. today when i have to drive, it is far easier for me to turn left on 4th to the ample parking lot of Lowes (or sometimes the Zettler on 11th), run in and buy it and zip home. To turn left, head into downtown and find paid parking at a meter I hope to find, the consumer decision has already been lost. i’m just one person, but I am arguing that i would frequent places like Zettler downtown a lot more via the convenience of a streetcar.
That’s his style of debating-paraphrase everything you say so you look completely stupid.
…
And, P.S., thanks for making me seem like a dick.
and welcome to the club. It’s fun, isn’t it. I WILL say, Columbuzz, that I felt the same at one point, but now I see a lot of other people taking up the same arguements I was flamed for. Nice.
I also take heart in teh fact that the pro-streetcar people keep coming back to teh same points in thier favor when questions are asked that have nothing to do with what they’re spouting. Check a couple of pages back to the several questions I raised when I first came back and only one person spoke even half way intelligently (is that a word?) about it.
It’s a small club, but its growing.
now THAT is the first objection I’ve found that is substantiated, and frankly I’d have the same questions. My guess, however, is that we won’t have a real price tag…until we do the engineering study, which is why I want to proceed with the engineering study to answer questions like cost, construction schedule, business/parking/traffic interference, etc.
Yeah, I guess that’s a good question-what are teh benchmarks that denote success of teh line and how do we know when its time tobuild more lines?
The Danter report will obviously need to be revised, because the 3 lines that were proposed in the report have been merged into 1 main line. But it currently contains, and the final report should contain, estimates on projected ridership and an economic development report. As a supporter, I’d be comfortable arguing that those final stats should be met before expansion.
I’d like to see the projections on ridership for the line we’re actually looking at.