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There was a presentation held earlier today regarding the long-discussed Columbus Streetcar concept. I personally wasn’t able to attend, but heard through the grapevine that there was communication about an official announcement that will be given in about six weeks. It was said that Mayor Coleman will give more details about the public meeting in which it will be announced. The first Streetcar line would run on High Street from OSU’s Campus down to the Brewery District. It will cost around $150 million and could be finished by 2012.
Can anyone confirm any of these details? Did anyone attend the meeting today?
^ I wouldn’t get your hopes up for Small Starts funding. As RetroMetro pointed out, even one applicant would be one too many for the funds that congress/bush has made available. And with ODOT’s financial troubles, I don’t think we can count on any state-level funding either. Strickland’s upcoming bond package is a possibility though.
As things stand right now, it looks like we have to push this through on our own.
Agreed. The federal government only paid for 5.7% of the $87 million for Portland’s initial 4.8-mile streetcar loop and two short extensions.
“Around one-third of the funding ($28.6 million) came from bonds backed by city parking revenues. The city’s urban renewal agency generated $19.7 million through tax increment financing, based on property taxes to be paid by new developments created along the streetcar line. Another $14.6 million of the initial costs were funded through a “local improvement district,†a species of special assessment available under Oregon state law. The Local Improvement District imposed a one-time contribution from businesses within the district based on their size and proximity to the line. Portland’s reliance on largely local funding meant that construction moved quickly, without the delays that accompany the federal regulatory process. Trimet (the regional transit authority) funds about two-thirds of the line’s $3.3 million annual operating budget, and the remainder comes from parking revenues, fares and promotions. “
Source: [url]http://midtowncommunityworks.org/PortlandStreetcars.htm[/url]
2012 actually doesn’t seem like a long implementation date for a transportation investment of that size.
I also wonder about the possibility of new funding sources/programing at FHA when the new administration (one thats more pro urban/pro transit) takes over in Washington next January.
two mild points:
1. looking at the the timeline, i think it is imperative that this effort go through now. given a 3-4 year planning, development, and construction timeline, every month/year we delay gets us further behind. we cannot prove that this system works in Columbus – both as a transportation initiative that might lead to a wider plan including light rail, and as an economic generator to line based development – without this system actually in place.
2. in looking at the line, i am a bit concerned about it’s overall potential for development. when i was riding the MSP LRT system from the airport to downtown Minneapolis, I was amazed and encouraged to see one mixed use development after another arising near the LRT stations. however, and very importantly, one of the wonderful aspects was that this development was arising in relatively older, former light-industrialized zones. there was mass property for clearing out and building significant projects (similar to Mockingbird Station along the Dallas North Tollway LTR line).
photo of MSP Hiawatha line development:
photo of Mockingbird Station office, retail, rental condos on DART line:
and my concern is, this line is running down one of Columbus’ largely developed corridors. Yes City Center needs to be redeveloped, River South needs development and there is an economy to be spurred in Weinland Park. But I am wondering where the big chunks of land are for mass redevelopment (City Center aside) on this line.
This is not to say I am against this line. I am very much for it. I think it ties in major populations (campus, SN, conventioneers, Arena goers, downtown employees, new City Center, Riversouth, and BD/GV) and it will help promote and stabilize current residential, business and retail along that strip. However in the grand scheme, if we want to witness the true impact of mass transit spurred development, we need to already be looking at lines from KLD to Franklinton, and down Cleveland through Milo and to Linden. Given the time involved, the longer we wait on these lines the longer we wait for development.
I know “you have to start somewhere.” I just hope that the plans for expansion are running concurrently with the construction of this line. If we take an attitude of get this line running, and see a bunch of people who are no longer YPs enjoy riding it around, then look to expand – we’re at 2020 (and Kyle won’t be the only old-fogey on the line).
Of course I’m getting ahead of myself. For now I will just wait for Mayor Mike to to decree that it is starting and Columbus is moving forward.
I think South High St. in the BD, RiverSouth, City Center, High st. @ Gay/Long, and the area between the Short North and Campus are all empty canvasses right now. There’s lots of potential for development, but most importantly, the first line needs to be a success. The second line can provide the enormous development opportunity.
1. looking at the the timeline, i think it is imperative that this effort go through now. given a 3-4 year planning, development, and construction timeline, every month/year we delay gets us further behind. we cannot prove that this system works in Columbus – both as a transportation initiative that might lead to a wider plan including light rail, and as an economic generator to line based development – without this system actually in place.
2. in looking at the line, i am a bit concerned about it’s overall potential for development. when i was riding the MSP LRT system from the airport to downtown Minneapolis, I was amazed and encouraged to see one mixed use development after another arising near the LRT stations. however, and very importantly, one of the wonderful aspects was that this development was arising in relatively older, former light-industrialized zones. there was mass property for clearing out and building significant projects (similar to Mockingbird Station along the Dallas North Tollway LTR line).
photo of MSP Hiawatha line development:
photo of Mockingbird Station office, retail, rental condos on DART line:
and my concern is, this line is running down one of Columbus’ largely developed corridors. Yes City Center needs to be redeveloped, River South needs development and there is an economy to be spurred in Weinland Park. But I am wondering where the big chunks of land are for mass redevelopment (City Center aside) on this line.
This is not to say I am against this line. I am very much for it. I think it ties in major populations (campus, SN, conventioneers, Arena goers, downtown employees, new City Center, Riversouth, and BD/GV) and it will help promote and stabilize current residential, business and retail along that strip. However in the grand scheme, if we want to witness the true impact of mass transit spurred development, we need to already be looking at lines from KLD to Franklinton, and down Cleveland through Milo and to Linden. Given the time involved, the longer we wait on these lines the longer we wait for development.
I know “you have to start somewhere.” I just hope that the plans for expansion are running concurrently with the construction of this line. If we take an attitude of get this line running, and see a bunch of people who are no longer YPs enjoy riding it around, then look to expand – we’re at 2020 (and Kyle won’t be the only old-fogey on the line).
Of course I’m getting ahead of myself. For now I will just wait for Mayor Mike to to decree that it is starting and Columbus is moving forward.
At last night’s presentation it showed the possible next line (the green line) that goes more east and west. One thing I was particularly impressed about was the depth of planning the city has put into this. They are certainly planning to expand and it was stated that in other cases once the community sees this up and operational the expansion requests will be more of a demand than a request. In turn this will speed up the timeline as money will come easier.
At last night’s presentation it showed the possible next line (the green line) that goes more east and west. One thing I was particularly impressed about was the depth of planning the city has put into this. They are certainly planning to expand and it was stated that in other cases once the community sees this up and operational the expansion requests will be more of a demand than a request. In turn this will speed up the timeline as money will come easier.
Good to hear.
It’ll happen! 8) Columbus is going to kick butt in 2012 in more ways than one, no doubt.
I know “you have to start somewhere.” I just hope that the plans for expansion are running concurrently with the construction of this line. If we take an attitude of get this line running, and see a bunch of people who are no longer YPs enjoy riding it around, then look to expand – we’re at 2020 (and Kyle won’t be the only old-fogey on the line).
Of course I’m getting ahead of myself. For now I will just wait for Mayor Mike to to decree that it is starting and Columbus is moving forward.
Dru, I’m thinking about this streetcar line like that trolley line that goes through the arts district (by the farmer’s market) in Dallas. I never rode it, I never needed to, but it serves(d???) it’s purpose well of moving people around all those shops, restaurants, etc. To me, it’s not a mass transportation answer (even though all of us as residents who don’t like the bus will benefit from it in that way), but it’s a start to get people thinking about other ways to get from point A to B without starting their car. Unfortunately, the more I read and hear, we’re so far away from light rail it’s not even funny. I’m telling you, when 315 AND 71 look like 635 and 75 every day then people will get it, but not a second sooner.
Don’t forget that the development reach will go a few blocks away from the line. There’s a lot of parking lots near the line that could stand to be replaced. ;)
Good point…they say that areas that are 2 blocks off the line will see the biggest impacts
There aren’t a lot of “big chunks” of land along the route, but there are probably quite a few smaller chunks, especially when you consider the parcels that are currently improperly developed. For example, it would not surprise me at all if some of the current short north eye sores, such as the suburban-style White Castle and UDF eventually become ripe for redevelopment once the streetcars go in. Also, when you increase the radius of potential development to include land a few blocks off of the route, there may be more.
I think that one of the biggest benefits of our first streetcar line will be to “plant the seeds” of public transportation thinking into a populace that current has no category for it whatsoever. Hopefully, it will get Columbusites to begin to consider forms of transportation other than cars to be viable options and even desirable (buses just haven’t been able to do this). Hopefully that will make it easier to add additional lines, and to finally sway public opinion toward support of light rail.
In my opinion, we will not be able to take Downtown Columbus to the next level without light rail. As long as every person that comes into downtown brings a car that needs to be stored with them, there is just no way we can be the city we want to be.
I think a large part of the problem is the service, not necessarily the vehicle. I agree that the streetcar would be more likely to spur development than a nice bus though.
A new question:
If the streetcar route is so great, why don’t we already have a fancy BRT-style bus, with nice stops, and real-time arrival information on the same route?
It would be the best alternative until we can add light rail for reaching areas outside of our central streetcar system. Why COTA isn’t doing it I’m not sure, though I can see ODOT standing in the way of BRT.
I think a large part of the problem is the service, not necessarily the vehicle.
I dunno. I remember hearing that the Wendy’s/Tim Hortons that was at the corner of State & High used to complain that the bus stop was TOO CLOSE to their store and got COTA to move it.
:?
A new question:
If the streetcar route is so great, why don’t we already have a fancy BRT-style bus, with nice stops, and real-time arrival information on the same route?
My ‘guess’ would be two pronged:
1. COTA is unimaginative and also (or maybe therefore) doesn’t have the clout to see initiatives like this through.
2. BRT lanes generally require an exclusive lane of traffic to operate effectively (or at least most models I’ve seen in Europe). Streetcars on the other hand can potentially allow traffic to concurrently utilize the lane that the trolley/tram also employs. I just don’t think you’d get a lot of support behind reducing High along this corridor to one-lane only. COTA does employ timed bus-only lanes in the CBD of this stretch, but I can’t see it working up High to campus as it would most likely eliminate on the street parking, which is already an issue in this zone (perhaps an ironic issue, but an issue nonetheless).
Is see every block of High St along the line ripe for development, save the cool historic buildings, GOV’T buildings, and a few highrises.
But I would say 80% of the street and 3-4 blocks deep on both sides can be re-developed. Obviously take out the suburban style places like the check mart, WC, UDF, Kroger, GoodyBoy, WASH & TAN, Rebecca Ibel Gallery. Obviously infill the parking lots. But there are a lot of other places that could be demolished and redone- Haiku Building is very subrban with a big lot, Intsy Prints strip at 1st Ave/Price Ave., Donatos, Urban Gardener. Places like Northstar that are only one story could be demolished for more density. Byzantium, Family Dollar all poor use of land. Skullys, Java Suds, Stonewall, the 4th AVE PO, The Library, and then the stuff slated for SCG Phase 2.
About 100% of S. High past Beck St can be reveloped S. High St is very suburban style right out of down town.
It is not like everthing there now was the original occupier of the street. N. High Street was widened in the 1920 and there was a massive reconstruction of all the places along it. All the front ends of buildings were removed and each place shortened maybe 10-15 feet. New facades were put in thier place.
I think something else that still seems to be receiving little to no consideration at this point is how unsafe streetcars are for bicyclists. I’m not saying we shouldn’t do streetcars because of the bicyclists (me being one of them) but that I hope the design considers this segment of the population.
The key issue being that bike wheels easily catch in trolly track and trollies can’t avoid a cyclist/pedestrian who has gotten caught in said tracks. Ask any cyclist in any city that has lots of trolly track and they’ll all tell you a war story about a crash.
Most importantly though is the principle of build it and they will come. By getting a mass transit system started it will then be easier in the future to get funds to grow that system. Getting the initial system off the ground however is the biggest hurdle and it seems like Mayor Mike will clear it. I agree that the light rail system is by far more important than the streetcar in the overall picture but I believe the streetcar will be the catalyst.
Likewise we need to work on curbing the amount of road expansion being built. I’m not saying it is all inherintly bad but roads are very much a situation of BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME. I mean, have you ever seen a highway junction built that didn’t end up with traffic jams at some point? (maybe that’s a little simple minded but I believe true enough to matter)
I think a large part of the problem is the service, not necessarily the vehicle.
When I talk to my friends and family in the suburbs, I can’t help but to get the impression that they view buses as cars for poor people. Even if the service was top-of-the-line, they are still cars for poor people. There is an undeniable stigma associated with buses among suburbanites.
I don’t think they view vehicles on rail the same way.
interestingly enough, the original sketch for that building was this:
2 residential stories on top. You could rig up a dumbwaiter and have your NS soup delivered to your residence. Or pehaps some large straw/feeding tube device. Rent would obviously be high, but entirely worth the convenience to NS.
But to the point, I am not saying that the High Street corridor doesn’t have room for development (although much of the SN stretch you mentioned falls w/i commission jurisdiction). Projects like this could go upward and onward.
I am saying that other areas would feel the impact more and prove the merits of mass transportation derived economic stimulus. I hope the plan calls for extension into other areas in quick succession.