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Earlier today, a new Amtrak study on the 3C Corridor “Quick Start” Passenger Rail project was released with several new figures, most impressively a researched estimate of 478,000 annual passengers riding between Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus, and Cleveland.
The study was conducted over the past nine months and will be used as part of Ohio’s federal stimulus funding application that will be filed on October 2nd.
The ridership estimates are based on conditions of passenger rail service as if it were operating today. Studies show that ridership would grow to nearly 600,000 annual passengers after five years of continuous non-upgraded service. The findings by Amtrak would mean that the “3C Quick Start” line would be the 12th largest generator of passenger rail traffic in the country.
The study also places the current total cost estimates of the 3C project at $342.6 million, which includes infrastructure, track and signal upgrades as well as maintenance facilities. The annual revenue from ticket sales is projected to be over $12 million per year based on the 2009 ridership estimates, and would grow as ridership increases.
More information about the Amtrak study can be found here on ODOT’s website.
This evening, ODOT and the Ohio Rail Development Commission held an open house public meeting at the King Arts Complex to provide more information on the project, as well as answer questions and concerns. Several of the most informative slides from the powerpoint presentation are below, and the entire presentation can be viewed here (PDF).
In contrast to Cleveland, Cincinnati’s Amtrak station occupies a small portion of the original Art Deco masterpiece Union Terminal. The rest of the station is a Museum.
http://queencitydiscovery.blogspot.com/2009/02/cincinnats-forgotten-railroad-history.html
AND, unless I miss read the PDF, the 3C *would not* use this amazing station? Looks like that might be due to heavy freight traffic on the rail line to be shared. Understandable, but a shame.
johnwirtz, yea I meant INTRACITY not intercity. I always get the two mixed up.
I don’t want to be negative or anything, but I just have this bad feeling that we will get a shitty station in a shitty location with very slow trains, inconvenience and not a whole lot of developers building or companies willing to expand around the station. In my opinion, a project like this needs to be done all out (high speed) or not at all, especially with the ongoing criticism, doubt and car centric society that Columbus has. The opponents do not need anymore ammunition.
Or maybe I’ll be totally wrong. Nobody knows if it will be successful. We all just want to BELIEVE it will. I’m trying, I really am.
cbusislander, yea Coleman had his chance to push the streetcar. Unfortunately, I think this is one of those very few projects that the city needs to just build and hope that “they will come”. (developers, businesses, ridership, etc.) Folks may lose trust in our city leaders, but they would gain it back when the benefits of a streetcar/light rail started pouring in.
I hear the critiques of this rail system, and in some ways I resonate with them. Here’s the bottom line as far as I’m concerned: We have to start somewhere. I think the alternative we have to rail investment is to keep pouring money into highways, which is not sustainable. As has been pointed out many times already, we can’t indefinitely expand highway lanes and use only cars to drive everywhere (including hybrid cars, which indirectly use non-renewable resources).
I believe it’s long overdue to start redirecting funding towards more sustainable transportation. I don’t think most people have a problem with that; rather, the concern I hear is that the market simply isn’t there for rail. I’m not an economist or transportation expert, but I agree to a certain extent with people who wonder about the viability of a transit system that is slower and more expensive than driving. Even as someone who hates to drive, I admit that after a few “curiousity rides” I’d probably swich back to the car because of time/cost benefits.
I still support this initial rail system, though, as a step towards viable mass transit. I would like to get rid of my car someday. Unfortunately, I don’t think $8 billion is enough to make rail competitive. $8 billion is a drop in the bucket as far as transportation spending goes. We’d have to be much more aggressive, and I don’t think Americans as a whole are behind such a massive shift in spending priorities.
Wasn’t there space set aside for a rail station at the Convention Center when it was first called the Ohio Center at its opening back in 1980 or so? It makes more sense to put the station at the Convention Center assuming that the main entrances are at the CC and not in the NE corner near I-670! Maybe that’s where the parking lot goes? The final destination of many convention attendees would more likely be a hotel in north downtown/short north or the CC itself vs. some offices on Marconi. Existing hotels such as the Dreary Inn, Hyatt Regency, Lofts, Crowne Plaza, Hampton Inn, Courtyard by Marriott are all in walking distance of the CC.
i personally dislike this intercity rail project, and would much rather see improvements on the Northeast Corridor and transit systems around the country, but despite that, I’m willing to take the cash since if it doesn’t go to Ohio, it will go somewhere else where it will be even less useful. The 3C has more potential than say, the proposed line from Chicago to Carbondale, IL, so we might as well accept the federal funds, or else it will be put to more useless endeavors.
As for the comments about highways… highways dont run deficits since theyre funded by gas taxes. This 3C line would require $17million a year in operating costs, and pull in $12m from fares, leaving a deficit.
Oh yea, and if we go “highspeed” right from the start, those complaints about a $50 r/t between cinti and cleve would seem like a joke – true highspeed rail is incredibly expensive. For example, the 2.5 hr ride from Tokyo to Osaka is about $300 for a roundtrip ticket. Thats why the highspeed trains are so nice – they’re business class trains.
Patch Says:
September 16th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
“So I get to ride on a train with the elderly, poor people, drunk sports fans and kids???
where do I sign up!”
I hate myself for laughing at this, but I still did.
I want Ohio to have a passenger rail option connecting Cincinnati, Columbus, and Cleveland. It will never happen. Please consider the following and let me know how I’m wrong and what we can ask Ohio legislators to do about it.
If you drive 250 miles from Cincinnati to Cleveland in a car that gets 25mpg, you’ll travel for 4 hours and spend $25 on gas. (I know, they’re suspiciously round numbers, but they’re pretty accurate according to Google, Amtrak, and BP.)
If you take a train, you’ll travel for 6.5 hours and spend $25 on a ticket. Yes, you don’t have to drive or need a car, but you’ll take over 50% more time at a $0 savings over the car.
If you drive with a partner, your time stays the same, but your costs per person are cut in half – $12.50. (Plus you only have to do half the driving!)
If you take the train with a partner, your time is still 50% more than the car and your costs (remaining the same per person) double to $50 total.
Assuming a 50% discount for children, a family of five would spend nearly $90 to take a train that would require 2.5 more hours of travel time (kids don’t travel well, remember) and they would arrive in a city without ground transportation.
If the family of five drove, they’d arrive earlier, cheaper, with their car in a city with ample parking.
To do this, Ohio’s initial expenses would be $500,000,000.
What am I missing? Why are we talking about this?
Please fill in the gaps.
If you drive 250 miles from Cincinnati to Cleveland in a car that gets 25mpg, you’ll travel for 4 hours and spend $25 on gas. What speed are you driving at that you can do that trip in 4 hours flat? Try 5, but that is besides the point.
I think its important to take a step back here and look at the bigger picture. One of the main reasons this will be popular is travel. Travel by rail to cities like Chicago, Philly, NYC, etc. People will use this for the quick business trip, the weekend getaway, etc. This is about making Ohio more accessible to travelers and business without taking a toll on the highway system. The railway could bring in more overall commerce for the state by simply making us seem more accessible.
Plus, have you ever tried to drive to Cleveland from Columbus the night before Thanksgiving? They could double the ticket price and it would still be worth it. Ugh, I hate just THINKING that trip is approaching.
In a word diversification. Freeways and automobiles have been great for this country-to a point. But as our cities have grown, continuing with a freeways first/auto-centric transportation policy is going to be more of a detriment than a benefit to our cities. One only needs to look at the current impact High Street and 315 projects have had on area businesses, the historical impact freeways had on inner-city neighborhoods and the projected displacement of 2 businesses in OTE as the split is fixed.
Building out alternative infrastructure can mitigate some of these issues by spreading the burden of traffic away from roadways. Even a small mode shift can help lengthen the period between massive repairs and decrease the need to erode more of our city scape for asphalt.
I’m not really sure why everyone is fixated on people riding the entire length of the route from Cincinnati to Cleveland. Sure, it’s long and slow and has quite a few stops in between, and probably wouldn’t be optimal for too many people who would prefer to drive. I mean… the Acela runs from Boston to DC, but I’d be willing to bet that most people don’t ride it the whole way (7 hours of high speed rail) on a regular basis. People are probably more likely to ride it from Jersey to NYC or Baltimore to DC. Shorter distances as a part of a larger network.
Similarly, the smaller, shorter routes on the 3C, have a ton of potential. Commuters will be able to ride this from the suburban Cincinnati station into Cincinnati… same with Cleveland. This could essentially allow someone who lives in Dayton to be able to take a job in Downtown Columbus and use the train as a direct commute on a regular basis. What they’d be looking at would be a much quicker commute and a much cheaper fare than riding the full length of the route.
I mean… is the same consideration being given to Interstate 71 based on the number of people who drive it from end to end (Cleveland to Louisville, KY)?
In related news…
Passenger rail service brought $7B in investments, jobs, developer says
By James Cummings
September 15, 2009
A land developer from Maine visited Dayton on Tuesday, Sept. 15, to tell local business and government leaders that Maine’s investment in passenger rail service has delivered benefits exceeding what planners expected.
Martin said Maine invested less than $100 million, and that triggered over $7 billion in additional construction investment, almost 7 million square feet of new commercial space and 18,000 new jobs. “It’s been like that all over the country, and there’s no reason to believe Ohio can’t be the same,†Martin said.
READ MORE
Those are the kind of things that sound encouraging. However, will the developers, businesses, residents and corporate giants start up, relocate and/or expand within close proximity to the stations….in Ohio? I believe they will. I hope they will.
I would really like perspectives from some of the larger developers and CEO’s in this city. Are they planning any projects in anticipation? Are companies planning to relocate and/or expand downtown? These types of answers sure would provide some ease for those skeptics out there, including myself. In fact, the potential for economic development in Columbus, especially downtown, is my main concern. I’m not expecting construction cranes everywhere, but I am expecting something.
The Jackets might increase attendance figures as well, which would be stellar.
Personally, I don’t think the longer commute would keep me from riding to Cleveland (which already has a rail system to some of it’s best neighborhoods) and Cincinnati (never spelled with two “t”s) and I’d like to find out for myself which I like better.
Seems that developers never have an issue developing around major roadway infrastructure. I think it follows that the there will be some investment in the immediate areas around the stations where there will an increase in foot traffic.
has there been any talk about how many times a day the trains will run?
every 20 minutes? every hour? 6 times a day?
4 per day from Columbus in each direction to start. See page 13:
http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Rail/Programs/passenger/3CisME/QuickStartDocs/Amtrak%20Draft%203C%20Report%2009-15-2009.pdf
On line poll in the Columbus Dispatch about whether or not you would ride the proposed 3C passenger trains:
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2009/09/17/0917_hot_issue.ART_ART_09-17-09_A1_1GF3OON.html
Ok, so correct me if I’m wrong, but the way I’m reading the proposed schedule(http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Rail/Programs/passenger/3CisME/QuickStartDocs/Amtrak%20Draft%203C%20Report%2009-15-2009.pdf) there is no way this would work for the purposes intended. For example, to catch a game in Cleveland, you would take the 3:32PM train out of Columbus, but would have no way to return because the last from Cleveland back to Columbus is at 3:30PM. In fact, there would be no evening train out of Cleveland or Cincinnati towards Columbus, effectively negating any commuter or entertainment uses of the train. Am I reading this wrong?
Keep in mind that this is essentially a “straw man” schedule for the purposes of having a base model for Amtrak’s study. There can always be changes made to the schedule. But you make a good point Ethan. You should write that in as a comment on the project website: 3CIsMe.Ohio.Gov
Sp where is the 40 MPH meme coming from on the interwebs? Half the comments I see on the Dispatch all bring this up.