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Started 1 year ago by alexs
Latest reply from Analogue Kid

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wind turbines

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alexs
Limestone bluffs of the Scioto
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The Byers dealership chain is installing wind turbines in Columbus and Delaware:

Byers gets grant, permits for Columbus, Delaware wind turbines
Tuesday, September 7, 2010
Business First of Columbus

Byers Automotive Group has taken major leaps with its plans to install wind turbines at two Central Ohio dealerships. The Columbus-based company said it has won approval for a $200,000 grant from the state Department of Development to install commercial turbines at its Byers Mazda Subaru dealership on Billingsley Road in Columbus and its Byers Toyota site in Delaware. The Delaware site is a former Ford dealership that underwent a $3.5 million renovation last year.

READ MORE: http://columbus.bizjournals.com/columbus/stories/2010/09/06/daily4.html

Posted 1 year ago #
Rockmastermike
CORNspiracy HQ
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It's an interesting article (I read it a few days ago). What it fails to mention is just how well small turbines are scaled to a business operation like this, which has more power need than a home but less than a factory. These sized businesses also typically have a greater ability than a homeowner to invest money and space to a good sized tower.

For example, I know a radio station up in Maine who uses a pair of them to provide about half the power for their 50 kilowatt transmitter. Again, that's way more power than a house, so it scales better.

At the same time, such a local installation avoids the massive power loss inefficiency of remote power generation (up to about 30% of all the power generated is wasted in line loss), so every metered megawatt generated this way actually takes closer to 1.1-1.3 megawatts off the grid (depending on distances and such).

Probably doesn't hurt Byers' marketing efforts, either. total win-win

Posted 1 year ago #
rus

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How much of their power needs do these windmills provide? %100? %80? %20?

Posted 1 year ago #
gramarye
In Exile
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Still not quite enough for cost-effectiveness, though:

"The estimated cost of the installations at the two sites is $600,000. Byers told Columbus Business First last year its Delaware dealership, the first tagged for the turbine installation, could save up to $6,000 annually in electricity costs with the new hardware."

In other words, they'll pay for themselves in 100 years, assuming no maintenance in the interim. Only 67 years if you discount the grant portion.

Posted 1 year ago #
DRR
Schumacher Place
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gramarye wrote >>
Still not quite enough for cost-effectiveness, though:

"The estimated cost of the installations at the two sites is $600,000. Byers told Columbus Business First last year its Delaware dealership, the first tagged for the turbine installation, could save up to $6,000 annually in electricity costs with the new hardware."

In other words, they'll pay for themselves in 100 years, assuming no maintenance in the interim. Only 67 years if you discount the grant portion.

That was my thought too, when I first looked at it. But, looking more closely the $600,000 figure is for both turbines while the annual savings is for only the turbine in Deleware. The numbers are further scewed by the fact that the turbine in Deleware is much smaller than the turbine being put up at the Columbus site, so presumably costs considerably less than half the total $600,000 figure.

Whether this is truly a cost-effective investment is debatable, but I'm sure Byer's will more than make up for it from a PR perspective. Also, if you are looking at it from a long-term perspective, you have to assume the cost of electricity will continue to go up over time which will further improve the payback.

Posted 1 year ago #
Rockmastermike
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I don't believe the 600K figure myself. I've researched small (10-20 kw) turbine installations a bit and have never seen a pair anywhere near that expensive by an order of magnitude including towers and other costs.

I suspect an extra 0

Although, as reported, they're talking about "69 foot wide" turbines is not a small installation. Actually way huge, which is why I do not believe that figure either. 69 feet TALL I would believe. 69 foot blades are closer to megawatt capacity, which I can't believe would be the case.

What I got from reading the article was that "byers is installing turbines" and "the reporter may have gotten confused about a few things"

But we'll see. Maybe the reporter is correct and they're actually installing enough wind power to run a small town. But I somehow doubt it.

$6000/year generation is really only about a couple of kilowatts, so it also totally doesn't match the rest of the numbers.

Posted 1 year ago #
groundrules

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I think when it comes to sources of alternative energy, there is more to the argument than mere cost. Clearly, most are more expensive than coal when it comes to simply pushing electrons. But there's more to the story- secondary and tertiary costs, blah blah.

Posted 1 year ago #
Twixlen
Westgate, Columbus
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Likely, part of the cost is getting the power from the turbines to the grid. If they have to do buried lines, the cost is massive, and $600K may be on the light side.

A small transformer station may also need to be built, especially if the one windmill is as extra-massive as they are indicating.

All in all, it's a good PR move for them, but, in general, the wind doesn't blow when it's most needed (the exception is blizzards).

Posted 1 year ago #
Rockmastermike
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Twixlen wrote >>
Likely, part of the cost is getting the power from the turbines to the grid. If they have to do buried lines, the cost is massive, and $600K may be on the light side.
A small transformer station may also need to be built, especially if the one windmill is as extra-massive as they are indicating.
All in all, it's a good PR move for them, but, in general, the wind doesn't blow when it's most needed (the exception is blizzards).

Most installations do not pipe large enough amounts of power out to the grid to require that kind of infrastructure... unless they really ARE putting in a town sized installation.

Maybe they are planning on becoming a power plant, but really that seems an odd move for a car dealership.

Posted 1 year ago #
Rockmastermike
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EDIT: I just looked up Delaware county records, and their request for a zoning variance for a wind turbine at Byers. As I suspected, they are being set up for a 10 kilowatt turbine on a small concrete pad with a 60 foot TALL mast. This would generate about $6000 electricity yearly, which is what was reported.

NOT the massive installation reported.

The columbus installation is likely comparable. These installations usually ony cost about 40,000 for a really NICE installation, so 60K for both seems reasonable with a discount rate. This would generate about $6000 electricity yearly each, which matches what was reported.

That all matches with my suspicion that the reporter accidentally added a zero to the grant and cost estimates and mistook the size as being "wide" instead of "tall"

It also matches the usual estimate of a 10 year payoff for small wind turbine installation costs.

zoning docs are found at 'delawarecounty.net'

also this article from last year includes more information: http://www.thisweeknews.com/live/content/delaware/stories/2009/03/28/wind_turbine.html

Posted 1 year ago #
DRR
Schumacher Place
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Just from doing a little bit of googling, it looks like the cost and size may be accurate if they are putting in a 100kW system with an installed cost of ~$500K and 65 foot rotor diameter (Planet Turbine 100kW system) at there Columbus dealership and a 10kW system with an installed cost of ~67K and 26 foot rotor diameter (Planet Turbine 10kW system) at the Deleware site. I have no idea how competitive this companies pricing structure is, but it would seem to be compatible with the numbers in the article.

Posted 1 year ago #
Rockmastermike
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DRR wrote >>
Just from doing a little bit of googling, it looks like the cost and size may be accurate if they are putting in a 100kW system with an installed cost of ~$500K and 65 foot rotor diameter (Planet Turbine 100kW system) and a 10kW system with an installed cost of ~67K and 26 foot rotor diameter (Planet Turbine 10kW system). I have no idea how competitive this companies pricing structure is, but it would seem to be compatible with the numbers in the article.

yeah... if they were putting in a 100 kw turbine.

the delaware county installation is documented 10 kw. if they're going to put a huge one in Cbus it would be interesting, but I cannot imagine why they would do that unless they want to become a power plant instead of a car dealer. If that's the case it's going to generate hugely more than $6000/year. more like $60,000

But, it IS possible. I cannot find any documents about the columbus plan. maybe you're right.

Edit: the more I think about it the better and more likely the 100 kw turbine sounds. cool idea for them actually.

Posted 1 year ago #
DRR
Schumacher Place
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Rockmastermike wrote
Edit: the more I think about it the better and more likely the 100 kw turbine sounds. cool idea for them actually.

I agree that would look mighty impressive in the middle of the city. It would (will) be interesting to see what neighbors think of something so big given all of the angst from the NIMBY's elsewhere when it comes to turbines.

Regardless, this will definitely give Byer's a leg up on the competition when I'm looking for a new car.

Posted 1 year ago #
Rockmastermike
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DRR wrote >>

Rockmastermike wrote
Edit: the more I think about it the better and more likely the 100 kw turbine sounds. cool idea for them actually.

I agree that would look mighty impressive in the middle of the city. It would (will) be interesting to see what neighbors think of something so big given all of the angst from the NIMBY's elsewhere when it comes to turbines.
Regardless, this will definitely give Byer's a leg up on the competition when I'm looking for a new car.

If i read this correctly it looks like it would be at the Billingsley rd store?

We'll be able to easily see that from 270. It will be quite a landmark.

Posted 1 year ago #
alexs
Limestone bluffs of the Scioto
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Thanks to the mods for editing my original post to include more information.

Yes, this is the Billingsley store so it will be next to I-270 just east of Sawmill Road. It will be very visible and I'm sure it will generate a lot of discussion.

Here's an example of teh webz at work, I heard of this through a local car board where some Byers employees are members.

Posted 1 year ago #
Analogue Kid
5th by West-Northwest
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The Dispatch reported last week that the Billingsly turbine would generate 150,000 kW per year.

Posted 1 year ago #
berdawn
near that stretch of N. High Street in the Short North
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gramarye wrote >>
Still not quite enough for cost-effectiveness, though:

"The estimated cost of the installations at the two sites is $600,000. Byers told Columbus Business First last year its Delaware dealership, the first tagged for the turbine installation, could save up to $6,000 annually in electricity costs with the new hardware."

In other words, they'll pay for themselves in 100 years, assuming no maintenance in the interim. Only 67 years if you discount the grant portion.

but annoying Don Blankenship is priceless

Posted 1 year ago #
gramarye
In Exile
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Rockmastermike wrote >>
EDIT: I just looked up Delaware county records, and their request for a zoning variance for a wind turbine at Byers. As I suspected, they are being set up for a 10 kilowatt turbine on a small concrete pad with a 60 foot TALL mast. This would generate about $6000 electricity yearly, which is what was reported.
NOT the massive installation reported.
The columbus installation is likely comparable. These installations usually ony cost about 40,000 for a really NICE installation, so 60K for both seems reasonable with a discount rate. This would generate about $6000 electricity yearly each, which matches what was reported.
That all matches with my suspicion that the reporter accidentally added a zero to the grant and cost estimates and mistook the size as being "wide" instead of "tall"
It also matches the usual estimate of a 10 year payoff for small wind turbine installation costs.
zoning docs are found at 'delawarecounty.net'
also this article from last year includes more information: http://www.thisweeknews.com/live/content/delaware/stories/2009/03/28/wind_turbine.html

Good work, and good info. Repped.

Posted 1 year ago #
DRR
Schumacher Place
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Analogue Kid wrote >>
The Dispatch reported last week that the Billingsly turbine would generate 150,000 kW per year.

Thanks for that find, here is a link Byer's turbines.

I'm not sure what to make of the numbers given regarding the total yearly output of 25,000 kW and 150,000 kW for the Deleware and Columbus turbines, respectively. I am assuming they meant kW-hrs for each. If that is the case, though, the turbine in Deleware would be expected to net ~ $2500/year (given 10cent/kW-hr electricity) rather than the $6000 reported in the Business First article. I'm probably reading too much into articles written in different publications, but I was curious about the disparities, as the numbers given in the Dispatch story make the return on invest much less appealing.

Posted 1 year ago #
Bristol Bar

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My brother is an engineer for Johnson Controls; right now, solar and wind DO NOT have a positive ROI. The technology is just not there yet.

Posted 1 year ago #