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Why a Streetcar?

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Started 2 years ago by lisathewaitress
Latest reply from Walker

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streetcar

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lisathewaitress
SoHud
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Okay. I almost hate to bring this up, but....

I was just in Chicago. Being there solidified for me long-term feelings that a streetcar in Columbus would be a HUGE waste of money. Why? because our city isn't big enough. A 4-mile streetcar would turn into a 4 mile eyesore.

I have a few thoughts, though, on how we could improve public transport without spending a billion.

COTA could install a small fleet of premium buses targeted directly at tourists. These buses would be more along the lines of hotel shuttles, only bus-sized. Comfy seats, wi-fi, etc. These buses could run in constant rotation from the Convention Center to the airport, and perhaps to the West side when the casino opens (assuming it will be relocated). The distance to the airport is so small that they could probably have only 2-3 buses making this rotation in a timely manner. They could even charge like $5 for this executive bus, which would still be cheaper than a cab ride.

Nice buses could also make a circuit down high street, similar to the late-night 21 bus; you could control some of the crazy train aspect of the #2 by making these fares higher as well. Perhaps you could pay $5 for an all-day pass or something, so that you could get from your hotel near the convention center up to campus for dinner at Alana's and then to German Village for some shopping at the book loft.

To me, this just seems like a much cheaper solution - at least to be investigated.

One funny thing I noticed in Chicago was that their cab fares were far cheaper than ours. Getting to dinner from our hotel was around $6, and taking the train would have been way more of a hassle to go that distance.

Just wondering.

Posted 2 years ago #
lifeliberty
Here
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I would definitely take cabs more often if they were cheaper.

Posted 2 years ago #
Rockmastermike
CORNspiracy HQ
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Buses are a trade off. Lower efficiency for cheaper installation cost.

Cheaper cost of entry (no tracks), but lower operating efficiency because of increased rolling friction and other factors, which yields a higher cost of operation over long timescales for buses.

Typically the coefficient of rolling friction of a steel wheel on a steel rail is about 1/100th of a truck tire on asphalt.

Also, the fuel cost issue WILL become a problem again soon.

All of these factors will contribute to more fare increases being needed over the years (in general terms) to maintain functional service with buses.

Also, I think you'll find cab fares are generally cheaper in cities with cheap public transportation. The el trains in chicago are dirt cheap compared to the cabs (to get more than a few blocks) the last time I was there. Which means there is competition. The trains stay fairly cheap because of their greater efficiency.

Posted 2 years ago #
StowCbusCleveland
Jackson Township, Canton, OH
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I don't know if we need a streetcar, but High St is certainly well situated for one IMO. One straight-line corridor of greatest activity seems to be a prime candidate for a first fixed line.

To me the better investment would be commuter rail, but that's just me. I'd be happy to have either.

Posted 2 years ago #
Rockmastermike
CORNspiracy HQ
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StowCbusCleveland wrote >>
To me the better investment would be commuter rail, but that's just me. I'd be happy to have either.

the smartest investment over long timescales would be both.

Posted 2 years ago #
Snarf
Dystopia
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High Street in the Snort North is already a clusterfuck, I imagine a streetcar would ice that cake quite nicely.

Posted 2 years ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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lisathewaitress wrote >>
To me, this just seems like a much cheaper solution.

Then why do we have to pick one or the other?

I've always been in favor of improving bus transit in Columbus in addition to developing rail transit.

Posted 2 years ago #
melikecheese
Merion Village
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Cabs in Columbus are expensive, why is that?

Anyway, a street car has a bit of romance attached to it, something a bus can never have to me.

I'd use the street car, I doubt I would use a bus, in fact, i wouldn't.

Posted 2 years ago #
Rockmastermike
CORNspiracy HQ
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Also, I think we're missing a bet by saying "A streetcar". "StreetcarS" (as used to exist) would be a much more functional idea, if used as local circlators connected to both inexpensive parking structures and commuter rail hubs.

Hell, I live really close and would spend a LOT more time on high street and downtown if I could just dump my car or motorcycle in a secured parking place and simply skate around on rails instead of hunting for parking or worrying about someone screwing with/knocking over my bike.

Posted 2 years ago #
Snarf
Dystopia
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What about a chairlift, like at the fairgrounds? It could run ABOVE high street. That would be so amazing.

Posted 2 years ago #
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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I think two of the big stand out reasons to have a streetcar, for me, are:

1) Capacity. Much easier to accommodate large numbers of riders (which is an issue on the High Street routes) with streetcar/rail than bus.

2) Mobility access. Wider doors and curb height entrance will make it easier for seniors, wheel chair users and others to access and use transit. Ever sit on a bus while a driver helps someone in a wheelchair on and off?

Posted 2 years ago #
columbusyuppie
Clintonville
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I personally think light rail would work best on Neil. High st is just too busy, gallery hop would be disastrous, and Neil isn't a far walk.
And when you bring visitors to town who wants to go with them for a ride on the bus and those expensive cabs. I could just vision picking a friend up at the airport, taking light rail to easton, through polaris, worthington, clintonville, OSU, short north and then to convention center downtown. A day full of activities at these various locations. All of this on a seamless reasonably priced ride. Rather than calling a cab, or waiting on a bus (in 30 min variables).

Posted 2 years ago #
Core_Models
Columbus
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I think that any time you try to view the streetcar as strictly a transit option, you're not going to be discussing the whole picture.

Buses don't drive development (nor do cabs).

Posted 2 years ago #
drew

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Lisa -

What info/thinking did you use to determine that our city wasn't big enough to justify street car transport? There are a probably a few cities who are our size or smaller that might want to know why they shouldn't have bought into them...

About creating a new class of bus - that sounds like a political minefield to me, ie poor people use this bus, well-to-do use this one...

Posted 2 years ago #
Columbusite
Minneapolis
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Not again. Seriously, nearly all of urban Columbus was built by the streetcar. Period. Running streetcars through these same neighborhoods is a no brainer. Period. Look at what our pro-car policies have done to streets where streetcar routes existed: Parsons, E Main, Cleveland, Mt Vernon, W Broad, etc, etc ,etc. What's left there is all development that came from the streetcar. Do we want to see those streets revitalized sooner rather than much, much later? Streetcars are the answer. I love High St, don't get me wrong, but we should have at least a few other worthy, major commercial streets.

Now COTA could use improvements regardless to make transit more attractive now. The focus on tourists and a fleet of first class buses sounds interesting to me, but it seems like it would be a drain on the regular fleet, at least as it's currently being run.

Right now what improvements I'd like to see COTA make after using it extensively in winter months: timetable and map at most stops, a 3 day visitor pass (visitors now either have to go for a $4 day pass or $22 for a 7 day pass), neighborhoods and landmarks on all maps, restrict routes to express only in sprawling areas, shorten and streamline regular routes, run buses more regularly on evenings and Saturdays (Sundays will come later), have COTA route timetables/maps available in businesses on correlating streets (#2 on High and E Main, #10 on Broad, etc), and lastly, shorten the #21 route by ending it in the north at Arcadia vs. Bleinheim at Whetstone. Seriously, that's about a 1/3 of the route and there are only two bars on that whole stretch, both of which are in walking distance of Arcadia. Instead of 30 min. intervals it would be closer to 20 meaning an average wait of 10 min. vs. 15.

Doing the above would make it more user-friendly for locals and tourists alike. Tourists would simply be more willing to use the buses for the same reasons locals would and when you have stops with no maps, no timetables, unless you have those memorized like I do you probably don't want to risk waiting who knows how long, possibly getting lost and stranded.

Posted 2 years ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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drew wrote >>
What info/thinking did you use to determine that our city wasn't big enough to justify street car transport? There are a probably a few cities who are our size or smaller that might want to know why they shouldn't have bought into them...

Not to mention the fact that Columbus USED to have Streetcars back when we were a much smaller (yet denser) city. ;)

Posted 2 years ago #
johnwirtz
Evanston, IL
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Rockmastermike wrote >>
Buses are a trade off. Lower efficiency for cheaper installation cost.
Cheaper cost of entry (no tracks), but lower operating efficiency because of increased rolling friction and other factors, which yields a higher cost of operation over long timescales for buses.
Typically the coefficient of rolling friction of a steel wheel on a steel rail is about 1/100th of a truck tire on asphalt.
Also, the fuel cost issue WILL become a problem again soon.
All of these factors will contribute to more fare increases being needed over the years (in general terms) to maintain functional service with buses.
Also, I think you'll find cab fares are generally cheaper in cities with cheap public transportation. The el trains in chicago are dirt cheap compared to the cabs (to get more than a few blocks) the last time I was there. Which means there is competition. The trains stay fairly cheap because of their greater efficiency.

Add a third option to the mix, electrified trolley-buses.

Posted 2 years ago #
Columbusite
Minneapolis
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lifeontwowheels wrote >>
I think two of the big stand out reasons to have a streetcar, for me, are:
1) Capacity. Much easier to accommodate large numbers of riders (which is an issue on the High Street routes) with streetcar/rail than bus.
2) Mobility access. Wider doors and curb height entrance will make it easier for seniors, wheel chair users and others to access and use transit. Ever sit on a bus while a driver helps someone in a wheelchair on and off?

Well, there were those articulated buses we aren't getting this year. And yes, the sidewalk level streetcars is a big factor for those in wheelchairs and even cyclists, who (correct me if I'm wrong) can just bring their bike on board vs. lowering the bike rack, lifting the bike, securing the bike and then paying the fare.

Still, I'm baffled by the hate on how busy High St is. That's a good thing. If were desolate like E Main, sure you can drive through quickly without a problem, but then that means it's a dead street with little to offer because it's in a bad state. Unlike traffic choked roads like Sawmill, you have plenty of nearby alternatives to choose from, so really you're only putting yourself through traffic on N High because you want to. I think a lot of people do for aesthetic purposes. It's a nice place for a slower scenic drive.

Posted 2 years ago #
johnwirtz
Evanston, IL
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lifeontwowheels wrote >>
I think two of the big stand out reasons to have a streetcar, for me, are:
1) Capacity. Much easier to accommodate large numbers of riders (which is an issue on the High Street routes) with streetcar/rail than bus.
2) Mobility access. Wider doors and curb height entrance will make it easier for seniors, wheel chair users and others to access and use transit. Ever sit on a bus while a driver helps someone in a wheelchair on and off?

If those are your only concerns, they could be solved with articulated buses and higher curbs at bus stops.

Posted 2 years ago #
johnwirtz
Evanston, IL
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Core_Models wrote >>
I think that any time you try to view the streetcar as strictly a transit option, you're not going to be discussing the whole picture.
Buses don't drive development (nor do cabs).

Case Studies on Transit Oriented Development around Bus Rapid Transit Systems in North America and Australia

Posted 2 years ago #