RSS
Twitter
Facebook
YouTube(trying to put a photo here, but it doesn't seem to be coming through...oh well)
Columbus Underground Messageboard » General Columbus Discussion » Everyday Chit Chat
Who Are We Kidding? Weinland Park Cannot Be Saved
[179 posts] [46 contributors]
Topic Rating:
(Total Ratings: 2)
Rate this topic:
Rate this topic:
-
KingLincolnUrbanEnthusiast
Login to Send PM
Bottom line is as Walker so emphatically states "IV and VV" is there today and has positive developments that will favorablly impact WP. With that said, there are places in New York where a block a way from Park Avenue and immense wealth is an unsafe ghetto - despite being 1 block away from immense wealth and property values and PHds in Medieval Literature and Harvard Lawyers.
So promixty is not a "guarantee" It does provide an incentive however, but is not a quid pro quo or logical hypothesis:
Rich neighborhoods and residents create revitalization
WP is near a rich developed neighborhood
WP will become a better place to liveLocation does matter and WP has a prime location. But other things matter, like schools, parks, safety, historic character, residents and community activists. WP has location and community activists. It has the Columbus Foundation, JPMorgan Chase, OSU and the city of Columbus and it has Wagenbrenner.
I'm not convinced on the "residents" critical mass thing - it has students, some urban pioneers, a vision, dedicated activists, some entrenched section 8, many carryouts, high poverty and a great sparkling Kroger - time will tell, but regardless it should improve with the attention and investment. What helped Clintonville "turn the corner" was the residents "drying" up the south half - this probably was more important than any other factor in driving positive change...
The scary part is for me are the $70K new houses (what they become 5 years out) and fear that someone in the Kroger parking lot will be a victim of a crime and deter folks from venturing north - WP is in some respects like the Netherlands - building dikes to hold back the sea in a place 20 feet below sea level and the sea is the ghetto and ghetto culure - feels like boiling the ocean at times - but you know what the Netherlands works and has prevailed despite the geology and geography of Germany and France and Spain swallowing it up - good debate and good ideas shared by everyone!
Posted 6 months ago # -
KingLincolnUrbanEnthusiast
Login to Send PM
Cheap you are so right and spot on!
Yes get rid of the slumlords (but encourage anyone resident or investor) who has pride of ownership, improves the premises, mowes, picks up the trash, cleans the grafiiti and CARES! Also, you need to get rid of most of the the current people living there (who don't care)
Trying to rehabilitate the indigenous poor and crime riddent (non-ownership) welfare dependant elements and raising their behaviour and living standards by improving or giving them (more free stuff and housing) is typically not a viable solution. Why - because you give a house and then then expect someone else to mow the lawn, because they have been raised being dependant on anyone else, except themselves - most don't even do the little things that improve the street (pick up the trash, keep a porch light on and pull the weeds)
You end up with the same section 8 or renter mentality that instead of living in a a run down tenament now live in style (for the moment) in a newly remodeled or new built home - but they (most not all) still lack the (know how to maintain) it and keep it from truning eventually back into crap! WP is going to be a very expensive experiment in social engineering - unfortunately, the track record for these types of endeavors isn't very good for anyone who cares to do their homework and research!
Posted 6 months ago # -
rory
NW Short North
Login to Send PM
KingLincolnUrbanEnthusiast said:
The scary part is for me are the $70K new houses (what they become 5 years out)
There are no $70,000 brand new houses in Weinland Park. There are $200,000 houses that are federally subsidized so that the price ranges from around $100,000 to $135,000. And I fully expect the same people that buy them in the coming months will be there in five years. There is a 5 year clawback provision to prevent people from flipping them and you have to get a conventional mortgage which is a little trickier than it was in 2006-2007. I live by one and I'm looking forward to meeting my new neighbors, whoever they might be but I'm pretty confident they will be engaged homeowners who believe that the neighborhood is getting better. Otherwise they wouldn't bother getting a mortgage and all the other hassles that homeownership entails and move to Weinland Park. The people that buy these houses can afford to live in many other neighborhoods in Columbus. Weinland Park is becoming a choice and not a last resort.
Posted 6 months ago # -
KingLincolnUrbanEnthusiast
Login to Send PM
Rory,
What you say is true - but there is more to the story...
The WP redevelopment master plan calls for several hundred $70K lower income qualified new builds as part of Waggenbrenner new-build plans - believe they will be East of North 4th towards Grant and former Columbus Coated Fabrics Factory site. This is in order to qualify for the Federal Tax Credits, site State reclamation grants and EPA hazardous site cleanup of the toxins and carcinogens in the ground near the industrial sites - now razed. They remove the toxin contaminated ground and bring in fresh clean earth to prevent a future Love canal situation. This ensures a healthy building site and reduces the developers liabilities and costly indemnification contract provisions.
This was also to maximize HUD monies and Low Income Housing Tax Credits (LIHTC) for future developers.
There will be a large mix of both very low income, low income, lower income, middle income and market rate - remember the plan is to try to re-house the current Section 8 and CPO "Community Property of Ohio" or Ohio Capital Corporation for Housing (www.occh.org) tenants into houses subsidized by HUD and local taxpayers (State and county welfare) in order to keep as many current residents in WP.
The main objective is to keep the poor people there now in WP in the future and prevent "gentrification." This is social engineering "at its best."
To me this will be a challenge and still draw new "market rate" house buying and tax paying home-owners... This is the conundrum - it would be great to know where this "social engineered" community planning has succeeded in the the past in the USA - I am not aware of other similar projects - time will tell. The good news is the public/private partnerships trying to clean up the blight and area... JPMorgan, OSU and Columbus Foundation are heavy weights...
Posted 6 months ago # -
rory
NW Short North
Login to Send PM
KingLincolnUrbanEnthusiast said:
Rory,What you say is true - but there is more to the story...
The WP redevelopment master plan calls for several hundred $70K lower income qualified new builds as part of Waggenbrenner new-build plans - believe they will be East of North 4th towards Grant and former Columbus Coated Fabrics Factory site. This is in order to qualify for the Federal Tax Credits, site State reclamation grants and EPA hazardous site cleanup of the toxins and carcinogens in the ground near the industrial sites - now razed. They remove the toxin contaminated ground and bring in fresh clean earth to prevent a future Love canal situation. This ensures a healthy building site and reduces the developers liabilities and costly indemnification contract provisions.
This was also to maximize HUD monies and Low Income Housing Tax Credits (LIHTC) for future developers.
There will be a large mix of both very low income, low income, lower income, middle income and market rate - remember the plan is to try to re-house the current Section 8 and CPO "Community Property of Ohio" or Ohio Capital Corporation for Housing (www.occh.org) tenants into houses subsidized by HUD and local taxpayers (State and county welfare) in order to keep as many current residents in WP.
The main objective is to keep the poor people there now in WP in the future and prevent "gentrification." This is social engineering "at its best."
To me this will be a challenge and still draw new "market rate" house buying and tax paying home-owners... This is the conundrum - it would be great to know where this "social engineered" community planning has succeeded in the the past in the USA - I am not aware of other similar projects - time will tell. The good news is the public/private partnerships trying to clean up the blight and area... JPMorgan, OSU and Columbus Foundation are heavy weights...
I realize I brought this upon myself by engaging with you on this thread but I have to say that there is not a word that you wrote here that is remotely based in fact. And if you have some documentation that proves it, post away, the documents I mean, because it is all contrary to everything I've heard for years now, i.e. I'm calling bullshit. Admittedly, I'm impressed by the whole level of fabrication, conspiracy, delusion, wishful thinking or whatever you want to call it. And if it does turn out to be all true you're pissing away your time on the CU because you ought to be working on the Kennedy assassination or some other cover-up of relative importance and interest rather than this minor league Columbus, Ohio, stuff.
Posted 6 months ago # -
KingLincolnUrbanEnthusiast
Login to Send PM
Rory, I hope you are right and I'm wrong...
Perhaps, you are correct and only time will tell.
It's amazing to me how many people - who have formed a point of view on what they have heard from others, but not read, researched or documented first hand themselves. I won't presume to guess the basis of your understanding - and assume it is based on your thorough research and evaluation of the documents. I could get these.
Then when the opinion of facts does not vet or chive with what they "want" to believe they call it BS or the one who articulates the contrary opinion as something less then nice.
Please look for yourself at all the "empirical evidence" and data. The new Kroger is great, the new police sub-station on E 11th is great the new "infrastructure" on Grant between E11th and E5th with new side walks, lights and roads is great...but also look at some things not as marketed or publicized.
I won't criticize your critical thinking or understanding. You have your opinion and are optimistic. You speak the truth, when you said that WP is becoming a neighborhood of choice - no debate, but let me leave you with a few "facts" to contemplate.
1) the number of new and planned habitat for humanity new builds in WP - please do yourself a favor and check out the organization's mission, funding sources, track record and income level of who will live there? Who is the target market?
2) Understand amount of free grant money available (this huge in relative and absolute terms for a community the size of WP) to current poor homeowners to fix up their houses, so they look nice...it doesn't, won't or can't change the underlying demographic and those living behind the doors.
The habitat for humanity program keeps or brings new poor people into WP and the grants keep poor people in houses that they may or may not be able to afford...
I still believe (you can't really or completely change a neighborhood) unless you change the residents and most importantly the demographics...
The last fact check go down to IV or VV and count how many minority or Appalachia families or homeowners from 1990 still live there - probably zero...now this is not a conspiracy theory of JFK's assassination - appreciate the analogy.
What happened in GV, IV, VV, OTE is directly the opposite of what the developer leaders have articulated as to their desire for WP's future vision. They don't want and HATE gentrification - that's the rub.
The investment in the sparkling new school - tells me there will be plenty of local mothers with babies, living within walking distance for years to come. This is the "same" demographic as 1980, 1990, 2000 and 2010 - check out the census too as another data point.
Heck - they have the amazing Kroger and the Columbus Public Libray branch on N High, an amazing (grammar) school building and plenty of CPO density nearby...
Posted 6 months ago # -
KingLincolnUrbanEnthusiast
Login to Send PM
Last comment...can't resist based on the JFK compliment...is that I suggest people do some neighborhood "forensics" to really get a handle on trends and what is actually going on - LOL
Posted 6 months ago # -
goldenidea
Login to Send PM
The habitat for humanity program keeps or brings new poor people into WP and the grants keep poor people in houses that they may or may not be able to afford...
I know firsthand an individual moving into one of the habitat houses on N5thSt. He's a very upright, law-abiding, responsible individual, with a full time job. If the houses on N5th about to come "on-line" are all occupied by people like him I think the "repopulation" of WP will be off to a great start. I really think he'll make a great owner-occupant.
Posted 6 months ago # -
rory
NW Short North
Login to Send PM
goldenidea said:
The habitat for humanity program keeps or brings new poor people into WP and the grants keep poor people in houses that they may or may not be able to afford...
I know firsthand an individual moving into one of the habitat houses on N5thSt. He's a very upright, law-abiding, responsible individual, with a full time job. If the houses on N5th about to come "on-line" are all occupied by people like him I think the "repopulation" of WP will be off to a great start. I really think he'll make a great owner-occupant.
I've met one of the new Habitat home owners too and he's really nice and I'm proud to have him as a neighbor. And don't forget his award winning home which a model for historic neighborhood infill housing nationwide.
As for the exterior grant program I can't think of anyone who hasn't lived here for years that received one. And they're certainly not just fulfilling the function of keeping someone in their house that's at the financial edge. That was never the idea and it wouldn't work anyway.
KLUE, I get that you don't think it's going to work and most the examples you've pointed out are racially and economically homogenous but that isn't the plan here. Maybe no one wants to live in a diverse neighborhood. You don't seem like a candidate but I'd like to think there are more open-minded people out there who do. I enjoy where I live and I hope you do too. I guess time will tell who is right, if there even is such a thing as being right in this type of neighborhood makeover. And I'm going to leave it at that.
Posted 6 months ago # -
goldenidea
Login to Send PM
I get that you don't think it's going to work and most the examples you've pointed out are racially and economically homogenous but that isn't the plan here. Maybe no one wants to live in a diverse neighborhood. You don't seem like a candidate but I'd like to think there are more open-minded people out there who do. I enjoy where I live and I hope you do too. I guess time will tell who is right, if there even is such a thing as being right in this type of neighborhood makeover.
I've never lived in WP but I've been working up there for the past decade. I used to travel a lot on my last job... really cool and nice places like Rome, Frankfurt, Paris, Prague, Hong Kong, Hanoi, LA, SF, DC, NYC, even to a launch pad at Cape Canavarel. After awhile, all of those places, especially the "touristy" parts of those places, began to look and feel the same. One weekend night, well after dark, I walked into D&J with a bud and I kinda had an epiphany. I thought "well, I've been to a whole lot of cool places, but I've never experienced this". It's not an easy place but there is value and it can be positive. Some people actively seek this out.
My understanding is that this redevelopment is the first of its kind anywhere in the US. If that's the case, all past experience, preconceptions, and results may not apply. We'll just have to see where this ends up. If social science is truely science, then this is a scientific experiment and research isn't cheap. Is it ever possible to improve those at the bottom, or will it always be a lost cause?
Posted 6 months ago # -
Anne
King Lincoln
Login to Send PM
Weinland Park Food Center and 3M site revitalization
Knowlton School of Architecture (KSA) researchers, led by professor Kay Bea Jones, are working with a team of designers, planners and developers assembled by the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission (MORPC) to improve the remediated former 3M/Auld site on 5th Ave and North 4th Street in Columbus. Students in ARCH 844 have interpreted the outcomes of the community meeting held 19 July 2011 at the Godman Guild adjacent to the site to help neighbors, planners, and grant stakeholders to visualize possibilities for improving quality of life and food access in the community. The U.S Department of Housing and Urban Development is supporting this research focused on an agrarian urbanist overlay and food security for the area.Posted 5 months ago # -
labi
Weinland Park
Login to Send PM
Anne, and CU staff all, might I observe that this thread has been the source of lengthy and for the most part worthwhile discussion BUT given its really negative title perhaps we could retire it as a place to present new news about Weinland Park? There is a thread called something like WP revitalization, isn't there, that could serve instead?
Posted 5 months ago # -
leftovers
Login to Send PM
Just drove down Summit. It looks like there are several houses being rehabbed down by 5th near the park. There are two fire damaged ones by the carryout that I thought would have to be torn down and some people working on a double. It looks like people other than large developers are also getting into the act. Great to see some of those orange signs coming down.
eta- just read labi's post, I guess we just need to be careful which thread we post in, but I think this new construction is showing that many think it can be saved.
Posted 5 months ago # -
cheap
Westgate
Login to Send PM
labi said:
Anne, and CU staff all, might I observe that this thread has been the source of lengthy and for the most part worthwhile discussion BUT given its really negative title perhaps we could retire it as a place to present new news about Weinland Park? There is a thread called something like WP revitalization, isn't there, that could serve instead?you want to censor a topic title because you don't like it.
unbelievable
Posted 5 months ago # -
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
Login to Send PM
cheap said:
you want to censor a topic title because you don't like it. unbelievableWrong. He's asking that news & updates on WP development go here instead:
http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/weinland-park-redevelopment
Rather than in this "rant thread".
Done!
Posted 5 months ago # -
upstairs
Old Town East
Login to Send PM
Of course, with urban redevelopment, WP will be taken as it holds a key swathe between downtown and OSU. Because of the specific political nature of this city, you can't outright shut down public housing and drive home property tax upgrades to send homeowners and landlords to flight. So, it may look dismal, this hornet's nest of sorts in regards to the burgeoning urban landscape, but in the end that may be positive, somehow towards generating a fair expansion and growth that plays to the city in the long run.
To say that saviors need to come in to rescue real estate from others for the sake of an argument is ridiculous. Empathy does require reflection.
There is a right and wrong way to growth. It comes down to overall demographic.
The position this article takes is based on the have and have not's.
In Portland, yes, I am tired of this branding but it's easily tokenized because of the similar (cultural, though barely) growth. In Portland, they simply demolished most of the projects and rebuilt them in the countryside so the market based on population growth could continue to advance. For all the cries, money talked and walked, clearing huge paths for the new middle class that was pouring in.
Columbus doesn't have this growth so you must wait. Otherwise, there would be an instant flood of capital driving policy.
The have and have nots.
Posted 5 months ago #
You must log in to post.
Launched in August 2010, TheMetropreneur.com is a local online resource devoted to small business development and entrepreneurship. Its aim is to tell the stories of Central Ohio's business community, foster regional economic development and assist entrepreneurs with its resource-heavy focus.