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YouTubePablo said:
Then why am I forced to pay for executions?
Twixlen said:
Or Viagra.
Exactly. Let's not pay for any of that.
Columbus Underground Messageboard » General Columbus Discussion » Politics
Healthcare Reform
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myliftkk
Columbus, OH
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gramarye said:
By definition, anyone who is forced by the government, for any reason (however pragmatic such a reason might sound to those outside the individual's faith), to violate a precept of his or her genuinely held religious faith. That is the fundamental guarantee of the First Amendment. It trumps practical concerns. Hell, it even trumps national security (see: conscientious objector exemption from the draft). I have to shake my head at the fact that we would allow someone to refuse to defend the homeland based on his religious belief, but we won't allow him to refuse to prescribe contraceptives.The government is constitutionally forbidden from conditioning generally available benefits on surrender or waiver of First Amendment rights.
I'm aware! This falls under those "practical concerns" I mentioned above that yield to issues of fundamental constitutional and moral principle in our system (or at least, have until this administration) when it comes to freedom of conscience.
There's only one element of 1st Amendment at play here, before we jump on the whole "it violates the 1st Amendment" bandwagon, and that's the exercise clause (since there is no conscience clause IIRC). A clause which has been litigated plenty of times in the past, for just these types of things. The government will claim it has a compelling interest, which it does in the case of large non-profits (and of course the health data on birth control backs this up - though you'd like to not consider that), and the litigants will lose by virtue of the fact that the exercise being circumscribed isn't really their exercise of religion at all, but a corporate exercise that consists of many members who don't not in fact subscribe to the religious dictates.
Posted 3 months ago # -
rus
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rustbelt said:
Or tuition money at religious schools.Or killing brown people around the globe.
Or bailouts for huge corporations who screwed themselves over.
Or the War on (some) Drugs.
Or...
Killing brown people I'd pay extra for because if you look like the cast of the jersey shore, that's guilt by association. ;-)
But you're getting it. Yes, end the war on drugs also. Yes, end student loans. Yes, end corporate bailouts.
Posted 3 months ago # -
rus
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rustbelt said:
And this mandate would most likely be a non-issue if we could end the fiscal and moral insanity of tying one's employment to their health care.I wonder if the religious groups upset by this ruling will respond by not offering health insurance at all, instead choosing to pay the resulting penalty. In effect, that would force a significant group of people to seek health insurance outside of their employment.
Posted 3 months ago # -
SusanB
Hungarian Village, Columbus' fastest growing Gayborhood!
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I think that it will actually harm Catholic hospitals if the Church succeeds here as that the better nurses (and other female staff) will look to work elsewhere. Unless they can compensate with better monies, hours, etc. My best friend is a RN and I know she would consider it a minus when looking at potential employers.
Posted 3 months ago # -
myliftkk
Columbus, OH
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rus said:
I wonder if the religious groups upset by this ruling will respond by not offering health insurance at all, instead choosing to pay the resulting penalty. In effect, that would force a significant group of people to seek health insurance outside of their employment.So isn't that a slippery slope win for those that want to decouple insurance from employers (which has proponents on both the right & left)?
Posted 3 months ago # -
rus
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SusanB said:
I think that it will actually harm Catholic hospitals if the Church succeeds here as that the better nurses (and other female staff) will look to work elsewhere. Unless they can compensate with better monies, hours, etc. My best friend is a RN and I know she would consider it a minus when looking at potential employers.Which is entirely possible and well within everyone's rights. If this leads to the Catholic hospitals losing staff or shutting down completely, so be it.
Then they can either reconsider their beliefs or cease to exist. Their call.
Posted 3 months ago # -
myliftkk
Columbus, OH
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And the circular firing squad lines up.
“I think this week’s outrage over the Komen decision should be a warning to the Republican party about how quickly there was a mass outrage over further and further attacks on general women’s health,” Kellie Ferguson, executive director of Republican Majority for choice, told me Wednesday. “You could see the same backlash on attacks on contraception.”
Ferguson calls the Republican rhetoric on contraception “crossing the line” — taking the discussion away from choice issues (where Republicans can find some broader, if still national minority constituency) and into the realm of the fringy extreme.
“For the last number of years, we in the pro-choice community in general — and we specifically as Republicans — have been saying as this pandering to a sort of social conservative faction of voters continues, you’re going to see the line pushed further and further and further,” she said. “And we’re now crossing the line from discussion of when we should regulate abortion to when we should now regulate legal doctor-prescribed medications like birth control, which is woven in the fabric of society as an acceptable medication.”
She pointed to widely-reported polling showing that a majority of Americans — and a majority of Catholics — support the White House policy and urged her party to take a step back before it’s too late.
Posted 3 months ago # -
rus
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http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/obamacares-coercive-essence/
The GOP will win the current contraceptive-abortifacient battle going away, because the average American understands the essence of religious freedom: government cannot force people to do things that violate their religious beliefs. The administration may try to frame this as a defense of women’s rights, but that’s pure sophistry. As I wrote yesterday, if the administration’s decision is reversed, women will still be perfectly free to use contraceptives, to seek abortions, and to do whatever else their beliefs permit. They just won’t be able to force others who object to such practices to pay for them.
Posted 3 months ago # -
myliftkk
Columbus, OH
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Yes, we all know conservatives won't overplay their hand, because well, they're so conservative...
Legislation introduced by Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) to reverse the Obama administration’s birth control rule would effectively permit any employer to deny contraception coverage in their employee health plans, critics note.
“Any employer could deny birth control coverage under Rubio’s bill and all the employer would have to do is say it’s for a religious reason,” said Jessica Arons, Director of the Women’s Health and Rights Program at the liberal Center for American Progress. “There is no test to prove eligibility. It’s a loophole you could drive a truck through.”
The Rubio bill, The Religious Freedom Restoration Act, comes in response to a Catholic firestorm over the fact that the administration’s exemption on its birth control rule does not include religious hospitals and universities along with churches. But this bill appears to go far beyond that, permitting any employer to claim the religious exemption without a criteria.Posted 3 months ago # -
rus
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I thank Vice President Joe Biden for visiting Ohio today.The Sisters of Charity Health System is a Cleveland-based Catholic health-care organization which, in collaboration with other Catholic health ministries, actively promoted the passage of the Affordable Care Act. We are dedicated to increased health-care coverage and access and are supportive of the law’s efforts to improve quality of care and patient outcomes.
I ask the vice president to help Catholic and other faith-based employers with a recent federal action. We are very disappointed with the Health and Human Services rule on women’s preventive services that requires the inclusion of contraceptive coverage and sterilization in employer-based employee-benefits plans. The regulation denies adequate conscience protections for religious employers like us.
Our faith motivates us; we carry out the healing mission because of God’s call. And we are blessed to be joined in our ministry by a diverse and inclusive work force.
We urge President Barack Obama to be consistent with existing provider conscience-protection laws and allow us to exercise our First Amendment rights to conscience protection as faith-based employers. Please fix this discriminatory rule.
SISTER JUDITH ANN KARAM
President and chief executive officer
Sisters of Charity Health System
Cleveland
Posted 3 months ago # -
kit444
Elsewhere
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rus said:
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/obamacares-coercive-essence/
The GOP will win the current contraceptive-abortifacient battle going away, because the average American understands the essence of religious freedom: government cannot force people to do things that violate their religious beliefs. The administration may try to frame this as a defense of women’s rights, but that’s pure sophistry. As I wrote yesterday, if the administration’s decision is reversed, women will still be perfectly free to use contraceptives, to seek abortions, and to do whatever else their beliefs permit. They just won’t be able to force others who object to such practices to pay for them.
The employees are paying for their health insurance, at least partially, correct?
Posted 3 months ago # -
myliftkk
Columbus, OH
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rus said:
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/editorials/2012/02/09/reverse-rule-for-contraception-coverage.html
We are dedicated to increased health-care coverage and access and are supportive of the law’s efforts to improve quality of care and patient outcomes except when countered by the archaic dictates of some dudes in enormous hats an ocean away.
FTFY
Posted 3 months ago # -
rus
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myliftkk said:
We are dedicated to increased health-care coverage and access and are supportive of the law’s efforts to improve quality of care and patient outcomes except when countered by the archaic dictates of some dudes in enormous hats an ocean away.FTFY
Wow, embrace the hatred.
If this is your admission that you'd like to use government policy to harass organized religions ... OK.
Posted 3 months ago #
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