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Want to Increase Housing Value? Build Rail Transit!

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Started 8 months ago by Walker
Latest reply from johnwirtz

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myliftkk
Columbus, OH
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Walker said:
You have some good points about being able to establish a certain level of service and adaptability in the first line.

Personally, I think a larger multi-phase plan is one of the biggest problems with the original Streetcar Plan. No one could see past the individual route to future expansion, because none of that was outlined. If a transit system needs popular support, then it needs to be sold as a full system and not just as a single individual starter line.

It's a chicken vs egg political problem. You can't sell a full system because every extent of the system is a chance for legal fights over the route, but you can't sell the starter line because people think it's not big enough.

After seeing Orlando fail to sell a full system across multiple communities for decades, I'm personally in the egg camp. I don't think, short of exercising eminent domain extensively, you can sell a full system today.

Posted 8 months ago #
RoundTowner
Miranova
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rus said:
On the politics... I wonder if trains were seen as something for rich people, not poor people, would more people support them?

Then again, look at the reaction to a proposed street car just on high street.

Take a bus up High St..yuk. Take a train up High St...oh yea!!
Its like driving an old Chevette or a new Corvette, they will both get you there, but one is more expensive and "cool" some people are only deep enough for the "look at me I'm cool because I am in a train, not a bus, regardless of the price to taxpayers.

Posted 8 months ago #
JonMyers
HCMC ✈
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Walker said:

If a transit system needs popular support, then it needs to be sold as a full system and not just as a single individual starter line.

Agreed. This or rather the lack of this is one of the main reasons the most recent Columbus street car proposal failed.

Posted 8 months ago #
gramarye
In Exile
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RoundTowner said:
Take a bus up High St..yuk. Take a train up High St...oh yea!!
Its like driving an old Chevette or a new Corvette, they will both get you there, but one is more expensive and "cool" some people are only deep enough for the "look at me I'm cool because I am in a train, not a bus, regardless of the price to taxpayers.

This is familiar territory by now. The differences are more than just superficial. The stability of fixed rail makes it easier for developers to invest in real estate and for retailers and other providers of goods and services to buy or lease space along the line because they have more certainty that the line will not vanish with tomorrow's morning mist. Bus lines are too easily changed to offer that kind of certainty, and uncertainty is absolutely an economic liability.

Also, even just in terms of direct costs, I seriously question just exactly how much more expensive a street-grade streetcar line is to run vs. a bus system of equal capacity.

However, with respect to the actual topic of this thread--the increase in property values in areas served by rail--the evidence is pretty much overwhelming at this point. Trains bring much more to the table on that front than buses do.

Posted 8 months ago #
jpizzow
580 N. Park St.
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I wander why COTA hasn't had more conversation about BRT yet? Cleveland, of all places, has a newly opened and nationally recognized system up and running. It's much cheaper and a semi-fixed route. Even with a horrible local economy, there is a ton of investment happening along the route. Something to consider.

Posted 8 months ago #
Coremodels
Really close to Explorer's Club.
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RoundTowner said:
Take a bus up High St..yuk. Take a train up High St...oh yea!!
Its like driving an old Chevette or a new Corvette, they will both get you there, but one is more expensive and "cool" some people are only deep enough for the "look at me I'm cool because I am in a train, not a bus, regardless of the price to taxpayers.

Yep, that's the only difference. It has nothing to do with transit oriented development, the fixed nature of rail, or anything other than a cool factor.

BTW, I ride the bus every day...and still would with rail in place, simply because of where I'm going...and still want rail.

Posted 8 months ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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RoundTowner said:
Take a bus up High St..yuk. Take a train up High St...oh yea!!
Its like driving an old Chevette or a new Corvette, they will both get you there, but one is more expensive and "cool" some people are only deep enough for the "look at me I'm cool because I am in a train, not a bus, regardless of the price to taxpayers.

Different individuals might have different reasons for preferring to ride rail transit over bus transit. But that's really neither here nor there. We're discussing public infrastructure investment and how it can spur additional private urban development.

Posted 8 months ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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jpizzow said:
I wander why COTA hasn't had more conversation about BRT yet? Cleveland, of all places, has a newly opened and nationally recognized system up and running. It's much cheaper and a semi-fixed route. Even with a horrible local economy, there is a ton of investment happening along the route. Something to consider.

COTA is studying BRT as we speak:

http://www.columbusunderground.com/cota-studies-bus-rapid-transit-for-cleveland-avenue

Posted 8 months ago #
johnwirtz
Evanston, IL
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gramarye said:
This is familiar territory by now. The differences are more than just superficial. The stability of fixed rail makes it easier for developers to invest in real estate and for retailers and other providers of goods and services to buy or lease space along the line because they have more certainty that the line will not vanish with tomorrow's morning mist. Bus lines are too easily changed to offer that kind of certainty, and uncertainty is absolutely an economic liability.

This may be true for crosstown lines and some of the lower frequency local routes but does anyone really think the #2 is going to disappear from High Street? It's been around since what, 1900? I don't really buy into the "buses are temporary" argument when it comes to the core lines like the #1, #2, and #10. That said, COTA should make it clear through marketing and branding that these routes are special.

Also, even just in terms of direct costs, I seriously question just exactly how much more expensive a street-grade streetcar line is to run vs. a bus system of equal capacity.

It might be an economy of scale problem. Right now, we have a lot of buses that can use two bus garages (McKinley and Fields) for maintenance and cleaning. A streetcar would need it's own new rail maintenance facility somewhere along the line. That will take some money to operate. Other than that, the cost of electricity should be lower than diesel, operator salaries should be about the same, and electric engines generally have a much longer service life than diesel. It's mostly capital costs for track and catenary that are more expensive.

However, with respect to the actual topic of this thread--the increase in property values in areas served by rail--the evidence is pretty much overwhelming at this point. Trains bring much more to the table on that front than buses do.

Yup

Posted 8 months ago #
bman
New Albany
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I am going to get hammered for saying this but there is NO WAY I would buy a house on a train line or even close ... I don't want to hear that noise and having people near my house loitering.

Posted 8 months ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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No one would be required to live near a train line. So you can rest easy.

Posted 8 months ago #
johnwirtz
Evanston, IL
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bman said:
I am going to get hammered for saying this but there is NO WAY I would buy a house on a train line or even close ... I don't want to hear that noise and having people near my house loitering.

You realize a streetcar would be quieter than the existing bus?

As for other types of rail, I think newly constructed systems (think of Metro in DC or BART in SF) are much quieter than you might expect of older systems like the "El" in Chicago or subways in NYC (not a problem underground anyway though). The El is also louder because it is mostly on structure instead of embankment. Regardless, I can understand not wanting to be adjacent to the tracks, but I think being anywhere else within a half-mile you would only see benefits with no noise problems.

Also, the NEPA environmental process for new transit projects requires noise analysis. If there were any significant impacts, noise abatement (walls usually) would be required.

Posted 8 months ago #
bman
New Albany
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Walker said:
No one would be required to live near a train line. So you can rest easy.

My point was that having a house near a train does not for most part raise values. Much like for most being near a crack house doesn't add value.

Posted 8 months ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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bman said:
My point was that having a house near a train does not for most part raise values. Much like for most being near a crack house doesn't add value.

The linked article in the original post says the opposite. Housing values are increased near train stations.

Your personal value might reflect otherwise... and that's fine too. But your own personal opinions don't have any impact on measured national trends.

Posted 8 months ago #
rus

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Walker said:
The linked article in the original post says the opposite. Housing values are increased near train stations.

Your personal value might reflect otherwise... and that's fine too. But your own personal opinions don't have any impact on measured national trends.

And measured national trends apparently have no bearing on public acceptance of trains here in Columbus.

Posted 8 months ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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I guess if you're basing your statement on bman's individual response as your measurement of "public acceptance", then yes. Seems to be a pretty small sample size though.

Posted 8 months ago #
rus

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Walker said:
I guess if you're basing your statement on bman's individual response as your measurement of "public acceptance", then yes. Seems to be a pretty small sample size though.

No. More like the overall public reaction to the streetcar proposal and 3C.

Posted 8 months ago #
CooperGuy

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Walker said:
The linked article in the original post says the opposite. Housing values are increased near train stations.

Your personal value might reflect otherwise... and that's fine too. But your own personal opinions don't have any impact on measured national trends.

Beyond bman's personal opinion;

From the OP's linked blog:

"Housing price appreciation was not found to take place near park-and-ride rail transit facilities, perhaps because of the nuisance caused by increased traffic."

http://dc.streetsblog.org/2011/09/12/the-housing-value-bonus-for-rail-transit-10-20-even-50-percent/

And from the study cited within that same blog

` Nuisance effects: Some studies have found evidence that homes located too close to certain types of transit stations or lines sell at a discount relative to similar homes farther away. Examples include:

- Landis et al. (1995) estimate that properties within 300 meters of one above-ground heavy rail line (the right-of-way, not the stations) in California sold at a discount relative to homes farther away, but the authors observe no nuisance effects for properties located around another above-ground heavy rail line or near three light rail systems.

- In one statistical model, Bowes and Ihlanfeldt (2001)find that properties within one-quarter mile of MARTA stations in Atlanta sold for 19 percent less than homes more than three miles away, but the effect weakened in subsequent models.

- Chen, Rufolo, and Dueker (1998) find evidence that proximity to a light rail line in Portland depressed the value of single-family homes, but the results were
statistically insignificant and the nuisance effects were much smaller than the positive impact of being located near a light rail station.

- An earlier study of home sales surrounding three Portland light rail stations finds that for properties within 2,000 feet, proximity to the station had a
negative effect on prices, while those in the 2,500 feet to one-mile band were positively affected by proximity (Lewis-Workman and Brod 1997). The authors note that the transit line runs down the middle of a busy street, which may have been at least partly to blame for the negative effects.

http://www.nhc.org/media/documents/TransitImpactonHsgCostsfinal_-_Aug_10_20111.pdf

Posted 8 months ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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rus said:
No. More like the overall public reaction to the streetcar proposal and 3C.

Oh, gotcha. Yeah, I agree that public reaction to anything generally is pretty irrational.

If a train were to be built, I would imagine that public acceptance would come about pretty quickly. Possibly to the point of quick expansion with additional routes.

Posted 8 months ago #
rus

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Walker said:
Oh, gotcha. Yeah, I agree that public reaction to anything generally is pretty irrational.

If a train were to be built, I would imagine that public acceptance would come about pretty quickly. Possibly to the point of quick expansion with additional routes.

So, basically, shove a train down people's throats and they'll learn to love it.

Posted 8 months ago #