Walker
The KLD / Downtown / Gay Street
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peanutnozone said:
I have friends that try to take COTA but it's terrible. I have one friend who lives in Minerva Park off of 161 and works in Dublin....using COTA takes her 2 1/2 - 3 hours when it takes 20 minutes by car. Unbelievable.
I don't find it too unbelievable that a square peg doesn't fit in a round hole.
columbusmike
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cheap said:
the inner city is not the problem with transit here.transit here is restricted by NIMBY suburbs who will eventually have to start up a transit system to work with COTA.
suburbs in this area are holding themselves hostage.they know they will eventually have to just give up and do the right thing.
I don't think it's so much that people don't want COTA in their suburb (although, I'm sure some of that exists), but it's more to do with the suburbs are not dense enough to make transit feasible nor do most people chose to live in the far flug suburbs unless they have a vehicle to get around.
As gas prices continue to rise, a lot of people in the suburbs will most likely slowly move back towards the inner city (places like Bexley, UA, etc) where they can reduce their driving mileage to work, school, and the grocery store. Property values will plummet in places like Dublin and New Albany, and we won't need to worry too much about providing public transit options to those places, because they will be even less dense. Unfortunately, the suburbs will eventually be places for lower income families ... which may necessitate providing some form of public transit to those people. Of course, this is probably 20 or 30 years from now.
johnwirtz
Glenview, IL
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The thing is that Dublin and New Albany ARE close to work for lots of people. I find it much more likely that Dublin will add density per plan, and other suburbs will follow suit.
http://www.columbusunderground.com/dublin-grows-up-the-bridge-street-corridor-plans-for-urban-development
columbusmike
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johnwirtz said:
The thing is that Dublin and New Albany ARE close to work for lots of people. I find it much more likely that Dublin will add density per plan, and other suburbs will follow suit.
http://www.columbusunderground.com/dublin-grows-up-the-bridge-street-corridor-plans-for-urban-development
I agree, the denser hubs of those suburbs will sill function somewhat. It will be interesting to see what all of the "office park" jobs do....will they return to the inner portions of Columbus or will they move to the suburb's denser areas? Our cities will probably look completely different 50 years from now and we'll probably end up with relatively large cities located short distances from the main host cities.
Unfortunately, I believe a lot of jobs are going to dissolve once gas hits those high prices and we're all going to have to get used to having a lot less expendable money for "stuff".
Walker
The KLD / Downtown / Gay Street
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columbusmike said:
I don't think it's so much that people don't want COTA in their suburb (although, I'm sure some of that exists), but it's more to do with the suburbs are not dense enough to make transit feasible nor do most people chose to live in the far flug suburbs unless they have a vehicle to get around.
^THIS
MORE: http://www.humantransit.org/2010/05/culdesac-hell-and-the-radius-of-demand.html
stephentszuter
Downtown Columbus
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Interesting how transit discussions come and go... I wish there was more that we could do to make it happen and fast.
technocowboy
Columbus
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As a daily COTA rider, I often get frustrated at the reliability and variety, to be honest. I live in Whitehall and work downtown. My commute is either on the 2 or the 10; that's not an issue. My partner, on the other hand, works in Dublin, so he drives. If our car should happen to not be available for whatever reason, it would take him 2 1/2 hours to get to work, and the closest bus stop to his employer (Cardinal Health) is a mile to a mile and a half away.
From what I've seen, one of the problems is that the bus routes are set up on a spoke system, with the central hub being Broad and High, and everything going out in relatively straight lines from there. There's no way to easily get somewhere in the city, for the most part, without going through the central hub. One of the jobs I applied for was in Gahanna. If we had two cars, it was a 10-15 minute drive. If I had to take the bus, it would have been a 2 1/2 hour ride each way, just to go 10 miles, because I would have had to go through downtown to get from Whitehall to Gahanna.
The 2, as someone said, makes over 100 trips in one direction every day. I'm wondering if there couldn't be some of those final destinations (such as James/Weyant) that could be eliminated and made to go further on, and possibly reducing some of that congestion and over-crowding.
technocowboy
Columbus
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But they're also a HUGE employer, and right next door to them is one of the main business offices of Verizon Wireless. They'd probably get a lot more people riding the bus if they had service out there.
leftovers
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I am not really sure if this applies, but I do think the hub and spoke method of transit is more appropriate for smaller cities. Are there other alternatives to this very centralized approach. Having to go downtown before going elsewhere may seem logical as a hub, but how is it reflected in actual usage patterns? Would it make more sense to have a network of more decentralized nodes?
johnwirtz
Glenview, IL
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technocowboy said:
But they're also a HUGE employer, and right next door to them is one of the main business offices of Verizon Wireless. They'd probably get a lot more people riding the bus if they had service out there.
I guess I'm saying the development should follow the transit, not the other way around. That said, it's obviously too late, so adding service out there could make sense, at least during rush hours.
Cole
Hilltop
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technocowboy said:
But they're also a HUGE employer, and right next door to them is one of the main business offices of Verizon Wireless. They'd probably get a lot more people riding the bus if they had service out there.
What route would a bus take to get there? If one destination is Verizon Wireless/Cardinal, where would the route originate? Is there enough demand throughout the day or is there clearly a morning rush and a evening rush?
I definitely think that COTA should start implementing more of a grid approach to its routes but I don't know how successful they would be in bringing transit to areas that aren't transit friendly. With industrial parkways, there would likely be semi-frequent stops due to setbacks for parking.
It would be better if businesses better think about transit options before finalizing a site. The first step would be to locate itself within the outerbelt and make decisions from there.
johnwirtz
Glenview, IL
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leftovers said:
I am not really sure if this applies, but I do think the hub and spoke method of transit is more appropriate for smaller cities. Are there other alternatives to this very centralized approach. Having to go downtown before going elsewhere may seem logical as a hub, but how is it reflected in actual usage patterns? Would it make more sense to have a network of more decentralized nodes?
A big city can support a grid of frequent transit services. Columbus' development isn't really dense enough. Start by reading this:
http://www.humantransit.org/2010/02/the-power-and-pleasure-of-grids.html
Then maybe these:
http://www.humantransit.org/2010/12/basics-some-tools-for-small-cities.html
http://www.humantransit.org/2010/12/basics-finding-your-pulse.html
I personally think Columbus has outgrown the single hub system, but the development is so scattered that it's tough to change COTA to serve anywhere other than downtown. One option is a few outlying transit centers with separate pulse systems based around those hubs. Places on existing frequent routes where several routes intersect are good candidates, maybe Northern Lights, Graceland, Kingsdale, Easton, etc. However, they need to be careful about where they put a transit center. I think the one at Easton on Morse Road is a pretty poor site. It should have been built into the shopping center, not across the street next to the strip malls.
I'd also like to see more focus on campus to create a second main hub outside of downtown. I have concepts for express buses to stop on 315 and I-71 on their way to downtown and connect to new or existing routes.
Walker
The KLD / Downtown / Gay Street
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technocowboy said:
But they're also a HUGE employer, and right next door to them is one of the main business offices of Verizon Wireless. They'd probably get a lot more people riding the bus if they had service out there.
I'd be interested to know where employees of Cardinal Health and Verizon are commuting FROM. My guess is anywhere and everywhere. Some from nearby in Dublin. Some from further out, like Whitehall. Would it even make sense to operate multiple bus lines branching out to all residential areas in the region to pick up work commuters from all areas? Would it make sense to cut down every residential street, or to stop on major arterial roads, which could still be miles from where people actually live?
Suburban office campuses are very large employment centers, but if the other end destination (home) doesn't have the same type of concentration, then I don't know if bus transit would ever make sense.
Walker
The KLD / Downtown / Gay Street
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johnwirtz said:
However, they need to be careful about where they put a transit center. I think the one at Easton on Morse Road is a pretty poor site. It should have been built into the shopping center, not across the street next to the strip malls.
From what I've heard, that placement decision was made by property owners and developers, and not by COTA.
Cole
Hilltop
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Walker said:
I'd be interested to know where employees of Cardinal Health and Verizon are commuting FROM. My guess is anywhere and everywhere. Some from nearby in Dublin. Some from further out, like Whitehall. Would it even make sense to operate multiple bus lines branching out to all residential areas in the region to pick up work commuters from all areas? Would it make sense to cut down every residential street, or to stop on major arterial roads, which could still be miles from where people actually live?
Since we're doing a lot of Human Transit linking, here's one about connections and how direct routes can be less efficient at getting people where they want to go. Thus, connections = good.
http://www.humantransit.org/2009/04/why-transferring-is-good-for-you-and-good-for-your-city.html
johnwirtz
Glenview, IL
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Walker said:
I'd be interested to know where employees of Cardinal Health and Verizon are commuting FROM. My guess is anywhere and everywhere. Some from nearby in Dublin. Some from further out, like Whitehall. Would it even make sense to operate multiple bus lines branching out to all residential areas in the region to pick up work commuters from all areas? Would it make sense to cut down every residential street, or to stop on major arterial roads, which could still be miles from where people actually live?Suburban office campuses are very large employment centers, but if the other end destination (home) doesn't have the same type of concentration, then I don't know if bus transit would ever make sense.
This is a good point. Transit works from dense place to dense place or from everywhere to a very dense place. Transit doesn't work from everywhere to everywhere (that's what cars do).
Walker said:
From what I've heard, that placement decision was made by property owners and developers, and not by COTA.
Not surprising. I think most developers are interested in things other than optimizing regional commuting patterns.
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