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YouTubeOk, I have debated this many times with people during my life but I have to be honest, I want to hear what CU has to say one the topic. You all seem like intelligent people (with the exception of the occasional freak that surfaces). I want to know, do you feel that all people add value (in some way) to society? My stance, yes, there is SOME level of value to each living organism. It may not be readily visible or even understandable but there is "value". Any takers?
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Value in every person?
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Tenzo
Chicago Lakeshore
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No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for theePosted 2 years ago # -
colinpperkins
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I think** I believe that every person has value and potential when they are born. However, some people grow up and don't add anything of value to society.
Take the man who was arrested recently in Cleveland with all of the bodies in his home. If what they are claiming he did is true - and it seems hard to believe it isn't considering he is a convicted rapist and has has bodies buried in his home - then I don't believe he adds any value to society at all. You can make the argument that he reminds us to be aware of blah, blah, blah. Or he teaches us the value of whatever.
But, ultimately, lessons like that aren't valuable. They're just necessary ways of society dealing with human garbage.
(**I haven't ever really considered this question much)
Posted 2 years ago # -
cr0m
"Lower" Hilliard
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colinpperkins wrote >>
I think** I believe that every person has value and potential when they are born. However, some people grow up and don't add anything of value to society.
Take the man who was arrested recently in Cleveland with all of the bodies in his home. If what they are claiming he did is true - and it seems hard to believe it isn't considering he is a convicted rapist and has has bodies buried in his home - then I don't believe he adds any value to society at all. You can make the argument that he reminds us to be aware of blah, blah, blah. Or he teaches us the value of whatever.
But, ultimately, lessons like that aren't valuable. They're just necessary ways of society dealing with human garbage.
(**I haven't ever really considered this question much)To me, this guy has value in psychological research. Basically, what the hell happens in a persons head that causes this.... etc. I will say, sometimes the value is not "good". Hell, I believe in using violent prisoners for medical testing. :-)
Posted 2 years ago # -
blammo
in the shadow of the wonder of bread
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Well, there's a saying: "We think of ourselves in terms of the best thing we've ever done, while others remember us in terms of the worst thing we've ever done". This explains why such insufferable douchebags freely roam the streets with seemingly undeserved lofty opinions of themselves.
So I might bop down the street thinking "yup, 8 years ago I played a packed gig at the Newport & kicked ass" while everyone else is thinking "dude, that's the guy at that one party who TOTALLY puked in my La-Z-Boy and took a dump in my car". Even Buffalo Bill, serial killer guy from Silence of the Lambs was a devoted owner to his dog. So yeah, I think everyone has some sort of value, although it's possible that we may never be in a position to see it or appreciate it.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Hael
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My answer to your question will first draw from my Christian upbringing (not practicing now). So, with that in mind, we are children of God and God has purpose and plan for everyone and everything under the sun. A very convenient and simple answer is it not?
Consider the Big Bang Theory. We are all made of the same stuff. We all share molecules of the stuff that stars were made of from the very moment of creation according to this theory. So with that as a backdrop, are we all not equal?
All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. - Ecclesiastes 3-20
To answer your question directly. Yes, every person has a value. I think it dangerous to believe otherwise and I believe history has shown some horrific results to that end.
Posted 2 years ago # -
KSquared
Literally Hell
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blammo wrote >>
Well, there's a saying: "We think of ourselves in terms of the best thing we've ever done, while others remember us in terms of the worst thing we've ever done". This explains why such insufferable douchebags freely roam the streets with seemingly undeserved lofty opinions of themselves.
it.Fundamental attribution error/self serving bias. Everyone does it :)
Posted 2 years ago # -
sugarplumclarey
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I think that "value" can be broadly enough defined that you can justify answering "yes" to the question in every case. Whether everyone contributes more to society than they take away, I'm not sure. I guess we're all just the sum of our actions; that serial killer may have been the nice man who gave you his seat on the subway and that social worker may abuse her own kids. In the end I don't know if we can fairly say that one person is wholly good and another wholly bad.
Posted 2 years ago # -
colinpperkins
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sugarplumclarey wrote >>
I think that "value" can be broadly enough defined that you can justify answering "yes" to the question in every case. Whether everyone contributes more to society than they take away, I'm not sure. I guess we're all just the sum of our actions; that serial killer may have been the nice man who gave you his seat on the subway and that social worker may abuse her own kids. In the end I don't know if we can fairly say that one person is wholly good and another wholly bad.I guess I am talking in terms of net value. The vast majority of humans I would say yes they have a net positive impact. But some don't.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Doug Z
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What a good topic.
I think our society's unprecedented greed and predatory capitalism have caused many people as being viewed as disposable. Reality TV shows bear that out.
There isn't much public pushback on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan even though most people view them as being unwinnable and unnecessary. It's ok to just keep sending the same troops (who mostly joined the military for economic reasons) repeatedly into the meatgrinder. Nevermind the millions of Iraqis and Afgani families who have innocently died or have become refugees.
And, our poverty rate among children is a national disgrace considering that America is #1 at creating billionaires. As Whitney Houston sang, "I believe the children are our future."
http://www.truthout.org/112508AWhat does it say that education and prisons are being commodified (allowed to become profit centers for corporations) even under the Obama administration?
But hey, I'm a liberal so I woke up in a good mood but soon became a grouch because I knew others are suffering somewhere else.
Posted 2 years ago # -
sugarplumclarey
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That is a tough one. Someone's net impact is so hard to think about, since we all impact people to different degrees. Not trying to deconstruct your question :) but I'm also figuring through what "society" means. My mother's impact on me is pretty intense but her impact on you is probably near zilch, and both of us are members of "society." Then there are the billions of billions of people she will affect now and in the future in both immediate and unforeseeable ways.
But stepping away from all the obnoxious semantics for a minute, I guess I don't think we can say that every human adds more value than it takes away. There just aren't too many convincing arguments for that.
That being said, all humans deserve certain rights and respect, IMUO.
Posted 2 years ago # -
colinpperkins
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sugarplumclarey wrote >>
That is a tough one. Someone's net impact is so hard to think about, since we all impact people to different degrees. Not trying to deconstruct your question :) but I'm also figuring through what "society" means. My mother's impact on me is pretty intense but her impact on you is probably near zilch, and both of us are members of "society." Then there are the billions of billions of people she will affect now and in the future in both immediate and unforeseeable ways.
But stepping away from all the obnoxious semantics for a minute, I guess I don't think we can say that every human adds more value than it takes away. There just aren't too many convincing arguments for that.
That being said, all humans deserve certain rights and respect, IMUO.There is the net impact of each person they have come into contact with. If I was a good father, but I rape and murder 10 people - who gives a shit that I was a good father?
Admittedly this is a completely far fetched and unique example I'm using, but still.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Manatee
The eternal present
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Since we've recently wrangled Warhol into our elitism and snobbery discussion, I thought I'd cite Warhol here: "If everybody's not beautiful, then nobody is."
I don't think anyone is valuable, for any reason. That's why we're all valuable. I believe that the guy who killed all those people in Cleveland not only stole those people's lives, but stole his own. He was not just the perpetrator, but also the victim.
If you're talking value as in monetary, than certainly some people are more valuable. But if you're talking value as some kind of perfect util of worth, we're all just dirt walking around, and also we're all holy. At least that's what I think.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Daz
Tweeting about some totally unimportant event
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Tenzo wrote >>
No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for theeOne of my favorites.
Posted 2 years ago # -
rus
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jackoh wrote >>
People don't have "value". They have existence; they "are".
"Value" is a judgment imposed by someone, or some group, on something; it has no status as an independent attribute of reality.Well said.
How one defines value says more about the speaker than the measurement itself. Even then such relative judgments are made against an idealistic yard stick which may or may not a realistic goal.
But also to agree with blammo; meat is a great source of protein.
Posted 2 years ago # -
TaraK
probably at the coffee shop
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I first thought, "Oh, I know how I feel about that." Then in considering my answer, realized I don't.
Here's what I know I think:
Value is a relative, organic value itself. It can be positive or negative. There's no universal view of what society is or what it should be doing, or what we want for "our" society.
The "value" of individuals is indefinite, always adjusting and a balance that reflects the output of the input they received from society, family, life, trauma, stimuli, etc. (Note: This should not be boiled down to or oversimplified as, "But I know good people who had hard lives. Everyone makes choices." It's more complicated.) I would wager that my "value" has fluctuated quite a bit in life.
I really want to think more about this.
Posted 2 years ago #
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