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  • #296190
    Cookie
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    gramarye wrote >>
    It seems plausible, even likely, to me that part of this difference is attributable to natural differences between men and women, and I’ve provided exactly as much evidence to support that as you have to support the opposite.

    After taking me to task for answering your questions, it seems like bad form to refuse to answer mine because I didn’t answer the ones you haven’t yet asked.

    #296191

    berdawn
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    gramarye wrote >>

    Cookie wrote >>

    gramarye wrote >>
    I realize that the former is what you said.
    My point was that the latter is where it would lead.
    I don’t question the sincerity of your belief.
    That’s part of what makes it so scary.

    Right, I’m the scary one because I answered your question about what a hypothetical utopian society free of sex-based discrimination might look like. Not the guy that argues that women naturally prefer teaching kindergarten to, say, holding public office in equal proportion to men.

    You’re putting words in my mouth now. Say engineering instead of public office, though, and I’ll agree. If you find that scary, well, “Boo!”
    I did probably say that I think more women than men find the demands of the highest levels of elective politics frustrating and not where they want to be. I find this plausible simply by looking at the lives and lifestyles of Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton and trying to gauge how many of my female friends would ever have willingly signed on for that kind of lifestyle. The number isn’t large. (Granted, I admit that this doesn’t resolve the issue of whether those preferences are shaped biologically or via socialization.) However, you’ve shown me nothing to suggest that women are running in a tremendous amount of primary campaigns and being shot down by sexist primary voters, nor sexist general electorates should they win primaries.
    I simply see no reason to believe that innate sex differences are as completely irrelevant or nonexistent as you want to believe. The body and mind are linked, and our bodies are obviously different. There are differences in our bodies in the hormones that shape behavior and personality. Asking me to believe, on the basis of simple ideological conviction, that these are meaningless to our lifestyle decisions flies in the face of all reason.

    fuck. I think I just pissed myself laughing.

    #296192

    berdawn
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    How about we just pay coal miners and child care workers the same hourly rate? both require the same education level and on the “demanding” scale, I’d say they’re about the same. It’s much easier than trying to convince women they want to run for office.

    #296193

    howatzer
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    RE:Gender in the workplace, Science and Engineering in the ivory tower has been traditionally viewed as a good test case for gender and racial demographics in education and workplace. As such, the NSF has kept very good records.

    http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/wmpd/figh-3.htm

    They show a strong increase in the percentage of female S&E degree holders and tenure-track/tenured faculty (e.g. 43% of recently graduated professors are female, as opposed to the 28% for the entire tenure/tenure-track professor population).

    #296194
    rus
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    berdawn wrote >>
    How about we just pay coal miners and child care workers the same hourly rate? both require the same education level and on the “demanding” scale, I’d say they’re about the same. It’s much easier than trying to convince women they want to run for office.

    Sure. With a government office to enforce that, right? Perhaps all jobs could be controlled from a central office with wages determined by committee.

    Why, that could also be used to ensure equal sex distribution in all fields. Not enough male child care providers? Congrats, you just got a new job.

    #296195

    howatzer
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    RE:Gender in the workplace, Science and Engineering in the ivory tower has been traditionally viewed as a good test case for gender and racial demographics in education and workplace. As such, the NSF has kept very good records.

    http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/wmpd/figh-3.htm

    They show a strong increase in the percentage of female S&E degree holders and tenure-track/tenured faculty (e.g. 43% of recently graduated professors are female, as opposed to the 28% for the entire tenure/tenure-track professor population).

    #296196
    Cookie
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    #296197
    rus
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    Cookie wrote >>
    Here’s one for Gramarye.

    That redirected me to here:

    http://www.jstor.org/cookieabsent.html

    Which, given your username, made me chuckle.

    #296198
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    Hmm. Then google this:

    The Gender Gap in Workplace Authority: A Cross-National Study
    Erik Olin Wright, Janeen Baxter and Gunn Elisabeth Birkelund
    American Sociological Review, Vol. 60, No. 3 (Jun., 1995), pp. 407-435
    Published by: American Sociological Association

    #296199
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    howatzer wrote >>
    RE:Gender in the workplace, Science and Engineering in the ivory tower has been traditionally viewed as a good test case for gender and racial demographics in education and workplace. As such, the NSF has kept very good records.
    http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/wmpd/figh-3.htm
    They show a strong increase in the percentage of female S&E degree holders and tenure-track/tenured faculty (e.g. 43% of recently graduated professors are female, as opposed to the 28% for the entire tenure/tenure-track professor population).

    And yet …

    #296200
    drew
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    Perhaps I’m just cynical, but I don’t trust any studies that have an obvious relationship to feminist issues. It’s such a politicized field that it’s hard for me to believe that the numbers aren’t filtered through ideology (and, in fact, I’ve seen more than a few articles that make that suspicion explicit).

    My distrust, of course, relates to studies that have anti-feminist conclusions as well as pro, and it does seem as though the results of such studies almost always have a direct favorable relationship to the goals of the organization that conducts them.

    In other words – give me a (pro- or anti-) feminism related study and 5 minutes with Google, and I’ll find either a study that contradicts it or an article that takes it apart.

    #296201

    berdawn
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    drew wrote >>
    Perhaps I’m just cynical, but I don’t trust any studies that have an obvious relationship to feminist issues. It’s such a politicized field that it’s hard for me to believe that the numbers aren’t filtered through ideology (and, in fact, I’ve seen more than a few articles that make that suspicion explicit).
    My distrust, of course, relates to studies that have anti-feminist conclusions as well as pro, and it does seem as though the results of such studies almost always have a direct favorable relationship to the goals of the organization that conducts them.

    yeah, that National Science Foundation…a hotbed of sexual politics!

    #296202

    howatzer
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    Cookie wrote >>

    howatzer wrote >>
    RE:Gender in the workplace, Science and Engineering in the ivory tower has been traditionally viewed as a good test case for gender and racial demographics in education and workplace. As such, the NSF has kept very good records.
    http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/wmpd/figh-3.htm
    They show a strong increase in the percentage of female S&E degree holders and tenure-track/tenured faculty (e.g. 43% of recently graduated professors are female, as opposed to the 28% for the entire tenure/tenure-track professor population).

    And yet …

    Yes, women still maintain a low percentage of non-tenure-track or research positions, especially those with children. Maybe this has something to do with the lack of security of these positions (i.e. living grant-to-grant?) The point, however, is that there is no artificial barrier against women getting these positions. Tenure-track positions are more competitive. Women tend to choose S&E tenure-track positions or none at all.

    #296203
    rus
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    howatzer wrote >>
    RE:Gender in the workplace, Science and Engineering in the ivory tower has been traditionally viewed as a good test case for gender and racial demographics in education and workplace. As such, the NSF has kept very good records.
    http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/wmpd/figh-3.htm
    They show a strong increase in the percentage of female S&E degree holders and tenure-track/tenured faculty (e.g. 43% of recently graduated professors are female, as opposed to the 28% for the entire tenure/tenure-track professor population).

    Hey… HEY!

    That doesn’t support the idea of women as oppressed victims! Enough of that! How can feminists feel good about themselves if they can’t blame society for their personal failures?

    Get back on track there mister! We need to support government control of all jobs to ensure a 50/50 sex split in all fields! Unisex coveralls ( loose fitting of course ) as mandatory uniforms to prevent sexual harassment! Mandatory male breast feeding!

    #296204
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    drew wrote >>
    Perhaps I’m just cynical, but I don’t trust any studies that have an obvious relationship to feminist issues. It’s such a politicized field that it’s hard for me to believe that the numbers aren’t filtered through ideology (and, in fact, I’ve seen more than a few articles that make that suspicion explicit).
    My distrust, of course, relates to studies that have anti-feminist conclusions as well as pro, and it does seem as though the results of such studies almost always have a direct favorable relationship to the goals of the organization that conducts them.
    In other words – give me a (pro- or anti-) feminism related study and 5 minutes with Google, and I’ll find either a study that contradicts it or an article that takes it apart.

    Are you referring to the study that was published in the peer-reviewed American Sociological Review?

    ASR Mission Statement
    The American Sociological Review is the flagship journal of the American Sociological Association (ASA). The ASA founded this journal in 1936 (volume 1) with the mission to publish original works of interest to the sociology discipline in general, new theoretical developments, results of research that advance our understanding of fundamental social processes, and important methodological innovations. All areas of sociology are welcome in the American Sociological Review. Emphasis is on exceptional quality and general interest. The American Sociological Review does not include book reviews. The ASA publishes the American Sociological Review bimonthly (February, April, June, August, October, December).

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