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The Streets are Too Damn Wide

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Started 11 months ago by Walker
Latest reply from columbusmike

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Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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Anne & I just returned from a weekend in Pittsburgh and one of the things I couldn't help but notice is how much narrower many of their major Streets are in and around Downtown. I'm sure a lot of that is due to the city being designed pre-automobile and the land-locked nature of the geography of the city.

Anyway, wanted to point out a few views to compare and contrast. Penn Avenue, one of the main drags through the cultural district Downtown up to the hip Strip District was primarily 1 travel lane in each direction (or 2 in one direction where it was one-way) with on street parking. Somewhat similar to High Street in the Short North, and what I imagine High Street would look like if it had on-street parking into Downtown. The wider roads in Downtown Pittsburgh were 4 travel lanes, and there generally seemed to be less one-way streets than in Downtown Columbus.

Anyway, just one observation (of many) between the two cities that was made over the weekend, and one I wanted to share as a point of discussion with a few questions:

1. Should Downtown streets in Columbus be narrowed?
2. Should Downtown streets in Columbus be converted to two way?
3. Should Downtown streets in Columbus have on-street metered parking?
4. If narrowed, what should the extra space be used for? (Green medians, bike lanes, transit lanes, wider sidewalks, etc)?

To compare... Pittsburgh:

and Columbus:

Posted 11 months ago #
Manatee
The eternal present
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Yep. It also makes Columbus a lot hotter in the summer, and colder in the winter. Just vast stretches of parched asphalt.

Posted 11 months ago #
RoundTowner
Miranova
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When High Street downtown was rebuilt in the late 80s, one lane was removed and the sidewalks on each side were widened. But, the street is still too wide, COTA should stay off of High and have a loop going around Front and 3rd, then place street parking on High again.

Columbus streets function well when it comes to getting people out of downtown, most of them should be 2 way and or have lanes removed.

The streets in Pittsburgh are mostly the size of Gay Street, which is the nicest Street downtown.

The idea of narrowing Broad Street has been kicked around about as much as putting in a train downtown, I am beginning to think it will never happen.

Posted 11 months ago #
Rodgers
Grove City, OH
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Columbus streets should definitely be converted to two-way traffic. I thought I had heard rumblings about that being in the works...did I hear incorrectly? (I wish I could just remember where I heard that...)

As for Columbus street width vs. Pittsburgh street width, I found driving in Pittsburgh to be unpleasant at best and borderline claustrophobic at worst, and finding adequate parking along the south side of the river (where most of the attractions were that I wanted to visit) always seemed problematic. I vaguely recall lots of alleys with not a lot of visual clearance to check for traffic. And getting around at rush hour in Pittsburgh was not for the faint of heart, at least not the few days I was there. Not necessarily my cup of tea, but of course, your mileage may vary.

Posted 11 months ago #
titleistcm
Dublin
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One way streets when used in tandem are the most efficient way to move automotive traffic, which is a primary neccisity in downtown Columbus today. By changing certain streets to 2 way, it throws off the traffic light pattern that works greatly when all streets in the system are one-way. That said, I disagree about converting streets to two-way downtown. However you can still invest in better parking solutions and other streetscape improvements to really enhance Downtown and make a uniform scene. For example, I work in the Arena District, and all the new 2 way streets and suburban style intersections really make rush hour a terrible mess, whereas downtown along the main 1 way streets, getting onto the freeways is much easier at the same time of day. BUT, the streetscape in the Arena District is nicer, thus attracts people more. Affordable modern residential rental options, combined with affordable homeownership downtown is still my key to revitilization. I firmly believe the demand is there...we are slowly moving in the right direction.

As I read my post, I don't want to sound like moving cars is the only answer, but I also support the push for mass transit improvements in Columbus. Like throwing down an awesome light-rail all the way down the middle of high st from downtown to Lewis Center, restricting some lanes to bus only, and using HOV lanes like most other cities.

Posted 11 months ago #
people211
Columbus
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Looking at those Pittsburger pix.. I'm having a little Density Envy...

Posted 11 months ago #
irishred
Clintonville
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Well obviously protected bike lanes are a great idea for everyone.

Posted 11 months ago #
davidd

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Wanna know why our streets are wider, dear? Lets take a look at the population of each city:

Columbus: 787,033
Pittsburgh: 334,704

I think you see where I'm going with this...

Posted 11 months ago #
cc

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davidd wrote >>
Wanna know why our streets are wider, dear? Lets take a look at the population of each city:
Columbus: 787,033
Pittsburgh: 334,704
I think you see where I'm going with this...

That means nothing without looking at the area they take up.

http://pittsburgh.about.com/od/facts/f/how_big.htm

Pittsburgh is still more densely populated (more people per square mile) than five of the top 10 cities in the country.

The size of the roads is mainly due to Pittsburgh developing pre-automobile and physical contraints of the triangle. In fact (as a historical note) large sections of houses built along the sides of ravines in Oakland (Panther Hollow) were torn down as fire hazards since they were not accessible by fire trucks.

A social curiosity is that people turning left are usually given right of way when the signal first turns green. This is to compensate for the narrow streets. It is not 'a law', but a custom. It can cause trouble with out of towners.

Posted 11 months ago #
kelly_S

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davidd -- I don't get where you are going with that. Columbus covers over 200 square miles. Pittsburgh is just over 50. Accordingly, shouldn't it follow that downtown Columbus does not require wide streets for purposes of traffic capacity based on population when most of that population is spread out over an area 4x as large as Pittsburgh? Indeed, population/square mile would support narrower streets.

Posted 11 months ago #
Mercurius
First Avenue
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davidd wrote >>
Wanna know why our streets are wider, dear? Lets take a look at the population of each city:
Columbus: 787,033
Pittsburgh: 334,704
I think you see where I'm going with this...
It's probably really only worth looking at MSAs too? In that, Pittsburgh is bigger.

Posted 11 months ago #
AmyJ

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Driving in Pittsburgh ranks as some of my worst driving experiences ever.

Posted 11 months ago #
Urban Dansigner
Downtown
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The streets are the width they are because of the Surveyor that laid out the streets and the time in which they were done. Pittsburgh settled 1717 - Columbus settled 1790's.

Posted 11 months ago #
Mercurius
First Avenue
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I'm not sure that the streets are too wide (Look at Washington D.C.) It's more that the streetscapes are too ugly because there's not enough density and the scale of the medians and sidewalks are too small comparatively to the width of the streets. That makes it appear empty (and ugly.)

If were making a wish list, let's go ahead and demolish a good section of downtown, build this, bury all the freeways, make all roads into parkways with bicycle lanes, build a pneumatic tube subway system and infill all the parking lots with iconic architecture.

Posted 11 months ago #
bastardsuperstar
ゴジラ
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AmyJ wrote >>
Driving in Pittsburgh ranks as some of my worst driving experiences ever.

thank god somebody said it before me. eff driving in that city, and eff parking there. dealing with on-street parking in pitts is almost as bad as manhattan. one of the hardest places to get around, especially if you're in a band-van/schoolbus kinda deal . . .

Posted 11 months ago #
Jefe

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1) there's no need to have lanes as wide as ours are. 10' would be fine in most places.

2) many of the streets have excess lanes. Broad is offender #1. 5th Ave comes to mind for me--as it's mine and a neighbor's daughter was just hit by a car yesterday.

3) if we re-do, there are a LOT (!!!) of intersections that would do well to be roundabouts instead of signals.

4) I'd love to see more architectural and textural elements added to Columbus traffic design. stamped asphalt or different colors to create inexpensive separation of areas without having to build entirely new medians/curbs/etc.

Posted 11 months ago #
AmyJ

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bastardsuperstar wrote >>

AmyJ wrote >>
Driving in Pittsburgh ranks as some of my worst driving experiences ever.

thank god somebody said it before me. eff driving in that city, and eff parking there. dealing with on-street parking in pitts is almost as bad as manhattan. one of the hardest places to get around, especially if you're in a band-van/schoolbus kinda deal . . .

I'm happy that Megabus has a Pittsburgh route now because I will never drive there again. I have ended up in tears!

Posted 11 months ago #
honavery
Arizona
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bastardsuperstar wrote >>

AmyJ wrote >>
Driving in Pittsburgh ranks as some of my worst driving experiences ever.

thank god somebody said it before me. eff driving in that city, and eff parking there. dealing with on-street parking in pitts is almost as bad as manhattan. one of the hardest places to get around, especially if you're in a band-van/schoolbus kinda deal . . .

Yeah, I had to park there once for work. Got there after 9pm on a Thursday and it was next to impossible. Finally found a garage, but it was crazy. You had to valet your car at the garage and everything was double parked. It was underground so these valets just run around underground all day.

Posted 11 months ago #
johnwirtz
Evanston, IL
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Walker wrote >>
Anne & I just returned from a weekend in Pittsburgh and one of the things I couldn't help but notice is how much narrower many of their major Streets are in and around Downtown. I'm sure a lot of that is due to the city being designed pre-automobile and the land-locked nature of the geography of the city.
Anyway, wanted to point out a few views to compare and contrast. Penn Avenue, one of the main drags through the cultural district Downtown up to the hip Strip District was primarily 1 travel lane in each direction (or 2 in one direction where it was one-way) with on street parking. Somewhat similar to High Street in the Short North, and what I imagine High Street would look like if it had on-street parking into Downtown. The wider roads in Downtown Pittsburgh were 4 travel lanes, and there generally seemed to be less one-way streets than in Downtown Columbus.
Anyway, just one observation (of many) between the two cities that was made over the weekend, and one I wanted to share as a point of discussion with a few questions:
1. Should Downtown streets in Columbus be narrowed?
2. Should Downtown streets in Columbus be converted to two way?
3. Should Downtown streets in Columbus have on-street metered parking?
4. If narrowed, what should the extra space be used for? (Green medians, bike lanes, transit lanes, wider sidewalks, etc)?

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. All of those ideas. I think you need someone to look at all the streets downtown in a comprehensive way, some kind of Complete Streets Plan. It's something I'd be happy to do, but probably don't have the time to do it for free.

Posted 11 months ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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AmyJ wrote >>
Driving in Pittsburgh ranks as some of my worst driving experiences ever.

I've never driven there, but I can imagine that it could be a tough experience.

I guess I should have prefaced by saying our trip to the city was via Megabus and we spent the weekend walking around. So my comparisons are to Columbus from a pedestrian standpoint.

Posted 11 months ago #