the public sector is Columbus' ball and chain « Columbus Underground Messageboard

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the public sector is Columbus' ball and chain

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Started 4 years ago by wildgoose77
Latest reply from gramarye

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wildgoose77
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This came up during a discussion the other day in one of my Geography classes at OSU. I don't have any facts or figures to back it up, but just consider it some food for thought:
One of the (many) reasons downtown Columbus has historically struggled to revitalize is because all of the government agencies are concentrated downtown. This disproportionately large amount of public sector employment results in a workforce that's earning public sector wages. Because public sector wages are lower than private sector wages, these workers have less discretionary income. Therefore, downtown Columbus is unable to support the quantity and variety of shopping and dining opportunities you're more likely to find in other big cities.
In other words, there aren't a lot of good restaurants downtown because everybody's brown-baggin' it.
Do you think this theory holds any merit? Why or why not?

Posted 4 years ago #
Coremodels
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wildgoose77 wrote Do you think this theory holds any merit?
nope

Posted 4 years ago #
lifeliberty
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from a personal standpoint I would say that is a valid theory looking into.
others will argue it's cause to many surface lots and bad transportation.
I don't know the answer, I try not to get caught up in city planning, but knowing myself and the people I work with you hit the discretionary income part on the head. (although I will say I might be in a little better position than others due to not having any children)

Posted 4 years ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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If this were the case then I think all three Wendy's would still be open and highly profitable while places like Due Amici and TipTop would go out of business.

Posted 4 years ago #
lifeliberty
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I don't think he was saying there are no people with discretionary income downtown, just that there aren't enough of them downtown to support a greater variety of upper scale places.
and as far as wendy's going out of business, after eating there about 4 days a weeks sometimes 2 times a day, I am sick of them. (maybe others are too). now I just go to cvs to get me through the day.(I do eat other places, the last year has been kind to me)

Posted 4 years ago #
Mercurius
First Avenue
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No, that is idiotic. the government employ's more than 39,000 people in Columbus. Without those jobs, we would look like Cleveland economically. In addition, federal government employees now make more than the private sector. Not sure about state employees, but government employees are doing better than you think. http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/article/435
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_Central_Ohio_employers

Posted 4 years ago #
Coremodels
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Yep, that's kind of where my thoughts were Merc. The "public employees" making lower than private sector wages aren't housed downtown, they're wearing orange vests spiking garbage along 270...or teaching.

Posted 4 years ago #
lifeliberty
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if you want to talk about state wages...
I know a lot of people make more at the state than they would in private sector given the level of education they have. So it's great pay for them.
I on the other hand would make more in private sector given the level of education I have. So it's low pay for me.

Posted 4 years ago #
Coremodels
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lifeliberty wrote if you want to talk about state wages...
I know a lot of people make more at the state than they would in private sector given the level of education they have. So it's great pay for them.
I on the other hand would make more in private sector given the level of education I have. So it's low pay for me.
isn't that higher education supposed to teach you where the grass is greener young padawan? :lol:

Posted 4 years ago #
mh338498
Discovery District
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Mercurius wrote No, that is idiotic. the government employ's more than 39,000 people in Columbus. Without those jobs, we would look like Cleveland economically. In addition, federal government employees now make more than the private sector. Not sure about state employees, but government employees are doing better than you think. http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/article/435
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_Central_Ohio_employers
Agreed - they are. Quite a few without college degrees, even. Just think about all of the administrative staff that deals with child support issues, writing welfare checks, park maintenance, city pool managers, and a lot of other jobs that actually pay extremely well. Aside from all of that, they don't pay into social security.
Not to bring him up, but that theory is a very Michael Moore-ish kind of logic... as in, A=B. If B=C, C could = D and, by a leap of assumption, D = E, then E may or may not have anything to do with A.
The book 'Freakanomics' is a lot like that, too. Don't get me wrong, it was very interesting and I liked it, but it never really got to causality, just correlation.

Posted 4 years ago #
lifeliberty
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:lol:
I'm kinda comfy where I'm at and at peace with my situation. I might only be here another 2 years anyways, if I do persist in doing the 30 years, I'll retire when I'm 55.
I honestly don't have any plans at the moment, I enjoy my life now. financially I get by. I might wear last years clothes but I'm not starving and I think what we do here is important. like I said, I might feel differently if I had children to pay for.
I'm guess I'm just living in the now and enjoying life for the first time in a long time (the last year has been great to me since May)

Posted 4 years ago #
lifeliberty
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mh338498 wrote Aside from all of that, they don't pay into social security.
where can I sign up for that?

Posted 4 years ago #
mh338498
Discovery District
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lifeliberty wrote
mh338498 wrote Aside from all of that, they don't pay into social security.
where can I sign up for that?
Get a government job :) Or, I think community colleges pay into it as well.
They pay into PERS, which is like social security, but it's set up for government employees and its guaranteed to be there when they retire. So, they neither pay into social security, nor draw from it. It's kind of like their own investment account.

Posted 4 years ago #
Coremodels
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mh338498 wrote
lifeliberty wrote
mh338498 wrote Aside from all of that, they don't pay into social security.
where can I sign up for that?
Get a government job :) Or, I think community colleges pay into it as well.
They pay into PERS, which is like social security, but it's set up for government employees and its guaranteed to be there when they retire. So, they neither pay into social security, nor draw from it. It's kind of like their own investment account.
that's a pretty broad generalization that doesn't apply to a lot of public sector employees.

Posted 4 years ago #
HeySquare
German Village
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I don't think the theory holds merit.
1. Because I'm not convinced that Columbus is struggling to revitalize. This is an assumption. I am not convinced that Columbus is in worse shape than other cities of comparable size and amenities. All cities have gone through a period of losing population, and issues with urban revitalization... if this were only happening in Columbus, then I would look for a local rationale.
2. I think one of the absolute strengths of the local economy is the relative diversity of the city's job base, spread out among government, private, and education sectors.
3. Government jobs, while perhaps not as high paying as some private industry jobs, tend to be more stable. You typically do not see massive layoffs of government employees. Stability in unemployment ultimately helps economic growth.
I think you need to look at the unique geographic and historical development of Columbus to find solutions to this issue. While it is far more complex than what I am about to summarize, here are some of my thoughts.
Columbus has PLENTY of dining and shopping options, as this website shows everyday; however, a significant majority of them exist in the suburban areas. Columbus is very much a city driven by annexation and suburbanization; therefore, the density of the dining and shopping options are more spead out, as is the population. Shopping and dining are not concentrated beause neither is the population. The population isn't concentrated because the city grows through annexation and suburbanization. If growth boundaries were established here, as they have been in, say, Portland, I think you would quickly find that growth pressure would direct inward once again. There are no geographic boundaries that prevent Columbus from sprawling ever outward, which is why the core is diffusing. While public policy may help re-create a core, I really doubt that, lacking any real geographic boundaries (as in Manhattan) or created boundaries (as in Portland) we will see a return to pre-suburbanization densities, densities that support shopping and dining variety.

Posted 4 years ago #
Cyclist
Peach District (State of Mind)
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We bring up this idea of revitalizing downtown as if something is wrong or dead about it. Downtowns or central business districts are places where the government jobs, private "front offices" of big businesses are located and civic buildings like arenas, conventions centers, libraries and museums are located. Downtowns everywhere are like this. That is what happens there. Sure there can be residents and nightlife, but that is not the purpose of a downtown and these things don't naturally develop there because downtowns are for those civic places.
I was in downtown Chicago "the loop" on a weeknight last month, and it was what we would call dead. But no one is saying that downtown Chicago needs revitalized. I am just concerned about the misunderstanding of the downtown as something to be neighborhood-ified.
By the way, what geography class and prof do you have at OSU? I have a degree in Urban Geography from OSU. Ahhh Derby Hall

Posted 4 years ago #
Coremodels
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Cyclist wrote We bring up this idea of revitalizing downtown as if something is wrong or dead about it. Downtowns or central business districts are places where the government jobs, private "front offices" of big businesses are located and civic buildings like arenas, conventions centers, libraries and museums are located. Downtowns everywhere are like this. That is what happens there. Sure there can be residents and nightlife, but that is not the purpose of a downtown and these things don't naturally develop there because downtowns are for those civic places.
I was in downtown Chicago "the loop" on a weeknight last month, and it was what we would call dead. But no one is saying that downtown Chicago needs revitalized. I am just concerned about the misunderstanding of the downtown as something to be neighborhood-ified.
By the way, what geography class and prof do you have at OSU? I have a degree in Urban Geography form OSU. Ahhh Derby Hall
best post by you EVER. I 100% agree, this isn't Cleveland. Our downtown is vital. Enough with the "revitalization" and on with further development.

Posted 4 years ago #
mh338498
Discovery District
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Coremodels wrote
that's a pretty broad generalization that doesn't apply to a lot of public sector employees.
Sorry... didn't know I needed to get into specifics... but, here you are:
"All employees who are paid in whole or in part by the state of Ohio, a county, municipality, or any other political subdivision of state or local government in Ohio must become members of OPERS unless they are covered by another state retirement system in Ohio or by the Cincinnati Retirement System."
more:https://www.opers.org/about/membership/index.shtml

Posted 4 years ago #
gramarye
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I'd also point out that D.C. is chock full of government buildings and is a wildly hopping town with an enormous population of young professionals.
There is something to be said, as was recently said on another thread, for the theory that government *buildings* are a liability, because they're almost never mixed use and almost never active after five o'clock. Developer Don Casto has said that the Ohio Statehouse is a psychological dead zone on what would otherwise be prime development land at Broad & High. The Ohio Supreme Court building, City Hall, COSI, and Vets Memorial chew up prodigious amounts of what would otherwise be serious revenue-producing riverfront (in terms of property taxes for the government, if nothing else).
What's true of government *buildings* is not necessarily true of government *employees.* In fact, Columbus being the locus of state government helps make Columbus more recession-proof than most other cities. It also attracts satellite industries that are even more lucrative: law, lobbying, insurance, commercial banking, investment services, and so on.
I do think the government often shoots itself in the foot by taking prime real estate for itself. Think of what kind of real estate might have been developed where the Ohio Supreme Court building is now if they'd put the courthouse out closer to where Capital Law School is.

Posted 4 years ago #
Cyclist
Peach District (State of Mind)
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We have a seriously vital downtown. I would say it is booming. We have a state capital building. Portland and New York do not have one of those.
There are at least 100,000 jobs downtown. It has the highest job density in Central Ohio.
Seems like lots of things built there and continued to be built from any time period in the last 150 years. Building big and small from all time periods show a constant investment and vitality of the place. I can not think of a place with such a spectrum of building types and styles. This proves consistent vitality of the downtown... when buildings from 1900, '10s, '20s, '30s, 40s to now are all grouped together.
Downtown needs no revitalization. Its doing just fine.

Posted 4 years ago #