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The Only Way to Give Columbus a True Identity

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Started 5 months ago by Gil Ligg
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buckeye54

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InnerCore said:
I'd also point out the as a city Columbus isn't project to do great among increase in millennial over the next 10 years. I know there has been growth among that age group downtown but that is more of a redistribution from the suburbs than actual growth.

On page 90 there is a break down of the 51 markets with statistics from the U.S. census and projections from Moody Analytics and PwC. The projected 10 yr growth of millennials for the entire is U.S. is about 10%. The projected growth in Columbus is 6%. So Columbus is well below the average. And Cleveland is -4% and Detroit is -12%. So basically our below average growth rate will be mainly people escaping nearby poor economies. Without the negative conditions in nearby cities Columbus would more than likely be flat or declining as well.

When you look at some of the other cities, you get Houston (21%), Denver (14%), Austin (25%), Raleigh/Durham (20%), Charlotte (15%).

I think the people fleeing the poorer performing cities is masking the larger structural and identity problems Columbus has. Without the help from these cities I think it would be apparent and create an environment more conducive to getting rail approved out of a need to at least keep pace.

I would like to point out that the population density of columbus exceeds austin and far exceeds charlotte and raleigh. Like to the tune of almost 1100 more people per square mile compared to charlotte. This narrative that millennials are flocking to the sun belt cities because they somehow have all these more urban walkable areas compared to columbus is a fallacy. They are going there for climate and jobs and it certainly doesn't hurt that you have at least 3 large universities in the raleigh durham region as well.I'm sure most people think walkable areas are great but if you don't have jobs then you better have something really awesome like the ocean or mountains or else people are going to show up and then leave.

Posted 5 months ago #
columbusmike

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buckeye54 said:
I'm sure most people think walkable areas are great but if you don't have jobs then you better have something really awesome like the ocean or mountains or else people are going to show up and then leave.

And if you don't have oceans or mountains (or even hills) you better make sure the built environment is really breathtaking.

Posted 5 months ago #
InnerCore

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Migration maps from various cities. The blue lines are place where they're gaining people from and the red lines are the places they're losing people to:

Columbus

Austin

Denver

If it's just weather then why are these cities gaining people from places with better weather. And last time I check Denver has had mountains for a long time. So why now are young people just recently starting to flock there?

I don't disagree that jobs definitely has a lot to do with it. But I don't think that is the only reason. Escpecially when this is the sentiment I'm hearing:

"This Millennial generation is the generation that decides where it's going to live before it decides what it's going to do," says William Fulton, president of policy and research at Smart Growth America, a non-profit national coalition against suburban sprawl.

A lot of these people are moving to these cities because they want to live there, and that is spurring job growth.

Posted 5 months ago #
myliftkk
Columbus, OH
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Pretty sure the legalization of a certain substance helped push Denver over the top...

Posted 5 months ago #
byJody
Rural NW Columbus
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Walker said:
Complaining about City Center... taking a shot at Mike Brown (do you even know what he does these days?)... sounds like you've lived here for much longer than a few months with this type of complaining.

Thanks Walker, yes what this city needs is more outsiders moving here and telling us how to be hip. Enough already. When he said we should have kept City Center? Oh geez, wtf?

I have lived here for all my 46 years and I am happy with the positive progress, especially the last 4 years or so. We are past quick fix slogans and buzz words, the city is coming into its own and not trying to be a Charlotte, Austin, Chicago, we are ColumbUS! We are making real and lasting progress. To criticize the efforts of Guy Worley as not innovative? How about having Crew teams rowing on the Scioto? He removed the barriers to that happening! I guess our progress is not obvious to the uninitiated, but to this long time resident, I think we are making great strides. The sore thumb is something he did not mention, the city school system, but that too is about to get a makeover.

Posted 5 months ago #
myliftkk
Columbus, OH
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I should have known better than to read this thread.

@InnerCore

First, both NY and SF metros have enormous populations in comparison to Columbus.

Second, if you really want a high food quality/capita you'd be better off in New Orleans, which has horrible economic prospects, but probably the best concentrated restaurant scene in the country IMO.

Third, Columbus transit options might not outclass certain US metro areas, but it's light years beyond FL transit even without a choo choo. The best transit in FL is Disney World's monorail. Rail is a fraught political topic around which partisan battles inevitably start. Assuming that the population generally doesn't want rail and that's why it's never been done is the belief of a political naif.

Fourth, economically OH didn't rise and fall nearly as much as "hot" real estate markets. Ask some of those "hot" market homeowners how they're going to finance their move to Denver from FL when they're $100k+ underwateer on their mortgage. Hell, ask all those unemployed graphic designers in FL how they enjoyed the aftermath of the spec market. Plenty of people in the creative communities around those spec markets lost their shirts. I'd much rather have developers building homes to barely greater than need, than a bubble induced by spec building. And no, there won't be a upward push in Cost of Living in Columbus because of the lack of spec building. Columbus can always grow outward as it's not geographically constrained, so the minute CoL goes up, some builder is going to plop more units on the outskirts.

Fifth, I've travelled extensively, have friends in almost every major city across the US since childhood, and the idea that just because a city has more of something makes it better is a "Ponderosa Buffet" idea. You can't experience everything that goes on in NY, so the fact that there's tons of similar things going on across a huge metro means zero additional value to me. I've been just fine jetting to NY for a special art exhibit, or the west coast for an multiday event. I don't have to run the rat race of paying to live there everyday and I get to take in just the best of what I want from them. The people I know that live there... they don't even make it to these "cultural experiences" most times. Mostly too busy keeping their head above water.

Sixth, Columbus is a very politically flat city to operate in. You want to start something interesting here, it's entirely possible to meet with just about anyone in the city on an idea. Try the same in a city like SF or NYC, good luck.

Seventh, JM's always right on this. Columbus is a very easy place to try what you want to do. It doesn't guarrantee success, but in the grand scheme of things, you'll get a pretty fair shake from people here, and they're very loyal. Contrast that with the bandwagon mentality some of our fellow entreprenuers go through in places like LA, and you'll see the difference. It's the process of allowing this creation to take place easily that makes Columbus stand out IMO. You can't really wrap a tag line around it, but that's ultimately not what matters to people who really want freedom to achieve what they imagine, rather than selection from a buffet of choices in front of them.

Posted 5 months ago #
InnerCore

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myliftkk said:
I should have known better than to read this thread.

@InnerCore

First, both NY and SF metros have enormous populations in comparison to Columbus.

And no where and I comparing Columbus to NY and SF. I have consistently been using cities like Austin, Denver, Charlotte, etc. Metros in the 1 to 3 million range.

myliftkk said:
Second, if you really want a high food quality/capita you'd be better off in New Orleans, which has horrible economic prospects, but probably the best concentrated restaurant scene in the country IMO.

Which city has the BEST restaurant options in debatable and irrelevant. Does it matter if New Orleands is number 1 or number 5. Does it matter if Austin is number 6 or number 9. The issues is that these cities have enough high quality restaurants that they are an incentive for new residents.

myliftkk said:
Third, Columbus transit options might not outclass certain US metro areas, but it's light years beyond FL transit even without a choo choo. The best transit in FL is Disney World's monorail. Rail is a fraught political topic around which partisan battles inevitably start. Assuming that the population generally doesn't want rail and that's why it's never been done is the belief of a political naif.

I live in Miami and take light rail to work everyday. We have not one but 2 separate rail systems downtown. Please explain to me how Columbus which only has buses is light years ahead of Miami where we have 1) just as expansive bus system, 2) an intercity light rail line, 3) an additional FREE rail system just to move people throughout downtown, 4) a commuter rail line connecting Miami, Ft. Lauderdale and Palm beach allowing people to work and live within each city 5) a newly created FREE bus trolley that runs on the routes of the future streetcar lines.

myliftkk said:
Fourth, economically OH didn't rise and fall nearly as much as "hot" real estate markets. Ask some of those "hot" market homeowners how they're going to finance their move to Denver from FL when they're $100k+ underwateer on their mortgage. Hell, ask all those unemployed graphic designers in FL how they enjoyed the aftermath of the spec market. Plenty of people in the creative communities around those spec markets lost their shirts. I'd much rather have developers building homes to barely greater than need, than a bubble induced by spec building. And no, there won't be a upward push in Cost of Living in Columbus because of the lack of spec building. Columbus can always grow outward as it's not geographically constrained, so the minute CoL goes up, some builder is going to plop more units on the outskirts.

Fifth, I've travelled extensively, have friends in almost every major city across the US since childhood, and the idea that just because a city has more of something makes it better is a "Ponderosa Buffet" idea. You can't experience everything that goes on in NY, so the fact that there's tons of similar things going on across a huge metro means zero additional value to me. I've been just fine jetting to NY for a special art exhibit, or the west coast for an multiday event. I don't have to run the rat race of paying to live there everyday and I get to take in just the best of what I want from them. The people I know that live there... they don't even make it to these "cultural experiences" most times. Mostly too busy keeping their head above water.

Sixth, Columbus is a very politically flat city to operate in. You want to start something interesting here, it's entirely possible to meet with just about anyone in the city on an idea. Try the same in a city like SF or NYC, good luck.

Seventh, JM's always right on this. Columbus is a very easy place to try what you want to do. It doesn't guarrantee success, but in the grand scheme of things, you'll get a pretty fair shake from people here, and they're very loyal. Contrast that with the bandwagon mentality some of our fellow entreprenuers go through in places like LA, and you'll see the difference. It's the process of allowing this creation to take place easily that makes Columbus stand out IMO. You can't really wrap a tag line around it, but that's ultimately not what matters to people who really want freedom to achieve what they imagine, rather than selection from a buffet of choices in front of them.

The rest of the argument is pretty much irrelevant. My argument has nothing to do with whether someone locally enjoys what is here. I'm sure we can find a lot of people that prefer Detroit. I'm talking about creating an environment that attracts the best of the next generation.

And again you keep trying to use places like NY and LA as examples. These other cities like Austin, Denver, etc. are also creating environments where people can get a fair shake and are loyal. That's my point. People want alternatives to place like NY, LA, Bos, etc. We should be conceding the qualities Columbus has to places like Denver, Austin, etc.

You don't have to hate what's in Columbus now to recognize things you could be doing better for the future.

Posted 5 months ago #
drew

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I'll just chime in to say this:

I love the cognitive dissonance in the idea that Columbus has to do what other cities do in order to have a 'true identity'!

That's not to say that other cities don't have valuable ideas worth incorporating here, but I don't see how having, say, enhanced mass transit would somehow make us unique in our identity... at all.

Personally, I feel the city has a fairly unique identity (for better and for worse)... which is probably easier to observe if one doesn't think that recognition of our identity by others is the stick by which you measure such things.

Posted 5 months ago #
DavidF
Elysium Fields
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myliftkk said:
I should have known better than to read this thread.

@InnerCore

First, both NY and SF metros have enormous populations in comparison to Columbus.

Second, if you really want a high food quality/capita you'd be better off in New Orleans, which has horrible economic prospects, but probably the best concentrated restaurant scene in the country IMO.

Third, Columbus transit options might not outclass certain US metro areas, but it's light years beyond FL transit even without a choo choo. The best transit in FL is Disney World's monorail. Rail is a fraught political topic around which partisan battles inevitably start. Assuming that the population generally doesn't want rail and that's why it's never been done is the belief of a political naif.

Fourth, economically OH didn't rise and fall nearly as much as "hot" real estate markets. Ask some of those "hot" market homeowners how they're going to finance their move to Denver from FL when they're $100k+ underwateer on their mortgage. Hell, ask all those unemployed graphic designers in FL how they enjoyed the aftermath of the spec market. Plenty of people in the creative communities around those spec markets lost their shirts. I'd much rather have developers building homes to barely greater than need, than a bubble induced by spec building. And no, there won't be a upward push in Cost of Living in Columbus because of the lack of spec building. Columbus can always grow outward as it's not geographically constrained, so the minute CoL goes up, some builder is going to plop more units on the outskirts.

Fifth, I've travelled extensively, have friends in almost every major city across the US since childhood, and the idea that just because a city has more of something makes it better is a "Ponderosa Buffet" idea. You can't experience everything that goes on in NY, so the fact that there's tons of similar things going on across a huge metro means zero additional value to me. I've been just fine jetting to NY for a special art exhibit, or the west coast for an multiday event. I don't have to run the rat race of paying to live there everyday and I get to take in just the best of what I want from them. The people I know that live there... they don't even make it to these "cultural experiences" most times. Mostly too busy keeping their head above water.

Sixth, Columbus is a very politically flat city to operate in. You want to start something interesting here, it's entirely possible to meet with just about anyone in the city on an idea. Try the same in a city like SF or NYC, good luck.

Seventh, JM's always right on this. Columbus is a very easy place to try what you want to do. It doesn't guarrantee success, but in the grand scheme of things, you'll get a pretty fair shake from people here, and they're very loyal. Contrast that with the bandwagon mentality some of our fellow entreprenuers go through in places like LA, and you'll see the difference. It's the process of allowing this creation to take place easily that makes Columbus stand out IMO. You can't really wrap a tag line around it, but that's ultimately not what matters to people who really want freedom to achieve what they imagine, rather than selection from a buffet of choices in front of them.

+Several million

Posted 5 months ago #
jbcmh81

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InnerCore said:
Migration maps from various cities. The blue lines are place where they're gaining people from and the red lines are the places they're losing people to:

Columbus

Austin

Denver

If it's just weather then why are these cities gaining people from places with better weather. And last time I check Denver has had mountains for a long time. So why now are young people just recently starting to flock there?

I don't disagree that jobs definitely has a lot to do with it. But I don't think that is the only reason. Escpecially when this is the sentiment I'm hearing:

"This Millennial generation is the generation that decides where it's going to live before it decides what it's going to do," says William Fulton, president of policy and research at Smart Growth America, a non-profit national coalition against suburban sprawl.

A lot of these people are moving to these cities because they want to live there, and that is spurring job growth.

I'm seeing that map for Franklin County and see that it added about 60,000 people 2005-2010. I'm also seeing net growth from many West Coast cities, the Northeast including the NYC area and of course many places within the Midwest. A net gain of 60,000 new residents for the county in 5 years is good by any definition. I'm still fully of the opinion that Columbus suffers vs the Sun Belt because of it being within Ohio. I also think much of its losses to those areas is climate and retirement related. I also think that Columbus is heading towards keeping far more of its younger population. It's inevitable with a steadily growing population and increasing amenity choices. You will see a lot more blue on that map in the next decade.

Posted 5 months ago #
Lu
Columbus
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I've been to both Denver and Austin numerous times, and while they're fun to visit, I wouldn't want to live in either city. Both are victims of their own success, with unbearable traffic, major pollution, rampant suburban sprawl, etc. I'd much rather be in Columbus, where the overall quality of life is really hard to beat. Incidentally, you couldn't pay me to live in Miami, which recently topped Forbes' list of Most Miserable Cities.

Posted 5 months ago #
geoyui
West Side
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ricospaz said:
I knew this thread would end up talking about rail.

Posted 5 months ago #
ChrisSunami
King-Lincoln District
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I agree that the whole "identity" question is played out. But I've been thinking for a while about what makes Columbus special. I think I know, but it's not something you can necessarily put on a bumper sticker.

In my experience, as compared to other places I've lived and been, people here are much more likely to have close and genuine friendships across lines of race, socioeconomic status and sexuality. A place like New York might be more diverse, but it's divided into little sealed subgroups. We simply aren't large enough for people to do that. At the same time, Columbus circa 2012 does have a significant and diverse immigrant population, and people here have, by in large, been very welcoming of that fact. And, of course, we're known as the most gay-friendly city between the coasts.

People here tend not to be snobs or status-obsessed or to judge you by what you're wearing. And though we have our fair share of problems, I feel like Columbus is really a place where a black person can get a fair shot. We have an exceptionally large number of black people in positions of power and influence here, and they are largely treated and judged fairly and on their own merits. Columbus is also both independent-minded and civic minded. We are known to have an exceptionally good network of social service agencies.

For me, the overall number one reason why it's Columbus and nowhere else for me, is the sense of possibility here. This is not a place that is finished and completed, or whose glory days are in the past. It's also not a place closed off to the future. It's a place small enough that one person can make a huge and visible difference here, yet large enough that making a difference here can be significant in the larger picture.

In general, I've found that the people who don't like it here are passive. They expect everything to be delivered to them on a silver platter. The people who do like it here are active. When there is something they don't like, they go out and do something about it. And these days, there's plenty of support for anyone like that.

Posted 5 months ago #
dubdave00
Dublin
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ChrisSunami said:
I agree that the whole "identity" question is played out. But I've been thinking for a while about what makes Columbus special. I think I know, but it's not something you can necessarily put on a bumper sticker.

In my experience, as compared to other places I've lived and been, people here are much more likely to have close and genuine friendships across lines of race, socioeconomic status and sexuality. A place like New York might be more diverse, but it's divided into little sealed subgroups. We simply aren't large enough for people to do that. At the same time, Columbus circa 2012 does have a significant and diverse immigrant population, and people here have, by in large, been very welcoming of that fact. And, of course, we're known as the most gay-friendly city between the coasts.

People here tend not to be snobs or status-obsessed or to judge you by what you're wearing. And though we have our fair share of problems, I feel like Columbus is really a place where a black person can get a fair shot. We have an exceptionally large number of black people in positions of power and influence here, and they are largely treated and judged fairly and on their own merits. Columbus is also both independent-minded and civic minded. We are known to have an exceptionally good network of social service agencies.

For me, the overall number one reason why it's Columbus and nowhere else for me, is the sense of possibility here. This is not a place that is finished and completed, or whose glory days are in the past. It's also not a place closed off to the future. It's a place small enough that one person can make a huge and visible difference here, yet large enough that making a difference here can be significant in the larger picture.

In general, I've found that the people who don't like it here are passive. They expect everything to be delivered to them on a silver platter. The people who do like it here are active. When there is something they don't like, they go out and do something about it. And these days, there's plenty of support for anyone like that.

Columbus: Redefining the All American City.

Posted 5 months ago #
buckeye54

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InnerCore said:
Migration maps from various cities. The blue lines are place where they're gaining people from and the red lines are the places they're losing people to:

Columbus

Austin

Denver

If it's just weather then why are these cities gaining people from places with better weather. And last time I check Denver has had mountains for a long time. So why now are young people just recently starting to flock there?

I don't disagree that jobs definitely has a lot to do with it. But I don't think that is the only reason. Escpecially when this is the sentiment I'm hearing:

"This Millennial generation is the generation that decides where it's going to live before it decides what it's going to do," says William Fulton, president of policy and research at Smart Growth America, a non-profit national coalition against suburban sprawl.

A lot of these people are moving to these cities because they want to live there, and that is spurring job growth.

Again,I'm referring to sun belt cities as a bastion of urbanity. I'm sure you're not trying to lump raleigh and charlotte in with austin,portland, and denver because it is in strict contradiction to the narrative that people are moving to the sun belt states for the walkable,urban neighborhood. Btw according to your map denver just reversed its outbound migration trend three years prior as well. In regards to millenials moving out of state, I don't think charlotte,houston,and raleigh are on anyone's hot list for any reason other then jobs and weather. Austin,portland, and denver are a change of pace and all have unique features of some sort.

I employ a lot of college students/recent grads and the main cities that they talk about moving to if any go like this: chicago,nyc,DC for jobs and urban lifestyle. Portland because its hipster central and urban lifestyle. Miami and phoenix for south beach/dessert/weather. austin for sxsw,liberalism. nashville for country music/cowboy culture. Florida in general for the beach/weather. Charlotte, houston, and Raleigh are almost never brought up with the exception of a certain job being available and they wouldn't have to deal with winter as much.

I know this is unscientific but I know a lot of people who moved to columbus from out of state and its all about jobs and they heard its a nice place to live and a lot of people who've left ohio and its almost always about jobs and weather with the exception of a few in chicago,portland,nyc which are about jobs and urban living. If anything this illustrates that people all have different preferences and it certainly is a disservice to try to lump all of the reasons why people move to varying cities in the US under one common denominator of urban lifestyle when it simply isn't a true statement or thought process.

Posted 5 months ago #
thepiece
merion village
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Just my personal 2 cents, but I also have lived in a few other states and cities (including Miami) which I find pretty difficult for various reasons, and have worked in about 20+ states as part of my job over the past decade(and pretty much every one of those "cool" places mentioned in this thread).

...none of these places are some type of eden, each has its pro's and con's, it just depends on what you value and where the opportunities are. Personally, I love having great employment opportunities, being able to actually afford living in an old victorian home a mile or two from downtown, having a beautiful urban park within walking distance for my kids, and having a five minute commute to work.

Next week, I'm in the Bay Area for a week, I'll love being able to get places via Bart, the wonderful architecture and breath taking scenario. But, I'll also be hearing complaints from some of my Bay Area colleagues about how they can't afford to live in the city, will never be able to afford to buy a home, or can't afford to have kids, or any other number of complaints. Again, everyplace has its pro's and con's.

As a completely uncool gen x'er with kids, I don't know if I'm just perplexed by the "cool" millenial/creative obsession, or just annoyed by it. Creatives and millennial are important to the economy, but they don't make or break the regional economy (no matter how many scatter plots Richard Florida puts in his books). It should be noted that his research also lumps so many people into the creative category as to almost being meaningless.

Look at the biggest investments in our region in that past few years, they (and the jobs they create) are primarily related to the health care industry. Do those radiation techs or physicians not count, how about all those good paying nursing positions or construction jobs created from our health care boom? Do those investments and jobs count less than other occupations?

An educated workforce is the most important thing our region needs, but there are lots of ways to meet that goal, and having one of the highest concentrations of higher education enrollments in the nation (per capita) helps considerably...and our high concentration of college student also statistically always guarantees that we will have a lot of 20 somethings moving away.

But, just some factual info that's been looked over here. Those maps of migration are missing the most important aspect of migration in the past decade (which is international migration). Just having analyzed the data for work related reasons, I can assure you that international migration is a big part of why our region has grown in the past year (and is a powerful entrepreneurial engine for our economy).

Columbus also came very close to having a light rail line (via COTA's old fast trax proposal), it narrowly lost in a countywide election in 1999. We don't currently have light rail (and it would be great if we did) but it's not because of some die hard opposition to rail that exists here, there are a lot of factors at play with that decision. Primarily federal and state rules (and the changing policy landscape) regarding transportation planning and funding, but also local factors, such as our lack of auto congestion (compared to other cities). I have also never met a person who moved just because one city had light rail and another didn't, but that's just an anecdote.

Again, just my two cents....commence continuing to argue and debate : )

Posted 5 months ago #
ChrisSunami
King-Lincoln District
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dubdave00 said:
Columbus: Redefining the All American City.

I love it. Maybe we can shorten it to "Columbus: Redefining All American" or
"Columbus: All American, Redefined"

Hmmm....
Columbus: Tomorrow's America
Columbus: Tomorrow's City
Columbus: Reimagining America
Columbus: Redefining the Heartland

@InnerCore : Not to argue with the data, but I must be reading that map wrong --how can our population have expanded if we've had a net loss in migration each year? Does that indicate that our population increase is entirely due to birthrate? I suppose 60,000 babies in 5 years is plausible...

Posted 5 months ago #
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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I suppose 60,000 babies in 5 years is plausible...

We have had a few substantial power outages in that time.

Posted 5 months ago #
Graybeak
Hunky Town
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ChrisSunami said:
I love it. Maybe we can shorten it to "Columbus: Redefining All American" or
"Columbus: All American, Redefined"

Hmmm....
Columbus: Tomorrow's America
Columbus: Tomorrow's City
Columbus: Reimagining America
Columbus: Redefining the Heartland

Columbus(Ohio): America's Test Market

Posted 5 months ago #
Bear
The woods
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InnerCore said:
I live in Miami and take light rail to work everyday. We have not one but 2 separate rail systems downtown. Please explain to me how Columbus which only has buses is light years ahead of Miami where we have 1) just as expansive bus system, 2) an intercity light rail line, 3) an additional FREE rail system just to move people throughout downtown, 4) a commuter rail line connecting Miami, Ft. Lauderdale and Palm beach allowing people to work and live within each city 5) a newly created FREE bus trolley that runs on the routes of the future streetcar lines.

Now you've gone and done it.

drew said:
I'll just chime in to say this:

I love the cognitive dissonance in the idea that Columbus has to do what other cities do in order to have a 'true identity'!

Posted 5 months ago #