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All good points from Chris, as usual.
I moved here 6-7 years ago, so my perspective has been that the city has been gaining traction and speed in cultural areas since then...
Columbus Underground Messageboard » General Columbus Discussion
The Only Way to Give Columbus a True Identity
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jbcmh81
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InnerCore said:
Were talking about two different things. Columbus' number of young professionals grew in the urban areas. That's not saying that people graduated from a school somewhere else and then moved Columbus. That's saying young professions that live in Columbus are choosing to live in urban area over suburban areas. Which is great.The Brookings institute did a study of the census data and ranked the cities with the highest net migration of people 25-34. The top 10 were:
1. DC 10,337
2. Houston 10,306
3. Denver 9,457
4. Portland 8,249
5. Austin 7,774
6. Dallas 6,714
7. Riverside 6,299
8. Seattle 4,478
9. San Antonio 3,796
10 Charlotte 2,835http://www.brookings.edu/research/expert-qa/2012/11/20-frey-qa
They also have the highest net migration of college graduates. Its a pretty similar list.
I think its great that more young professional are choosing the urban core. It's a trend that is happening across the nation. When I move back I'll be adding to that trend. But lets not use our rose colored glasses to shade the truth. By and large young professionals not already in Columbus are not choosing to move to Columbus.
What time period were these numbers for? These cities look like the same ones that grew the most 2000-2010, a hot time for the Sun Belt. It's easy to get large numbers of any group when you already have high in-migration. These same cities also likely had high numbers of HS dropouts move there as well. I'm more interested in the % of total migration, as I think that's a far more accurate way to look at the numbers. I suspect, however, that without the housing boom, the 2010-2020 migration patterns will change a bit anyway.
Edit: So they're for 2009-2011, which would include estimates. The 2010-2011 population estimates just assumed the same growth as the rest of the previous decade, so the point still stands.
Posted 5 months ago # -
InnerCore
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dubdave00 said:
I think one of the cool things about Columbus these days is that we're increasingly recognizing that other cities can do cool things too and not jump to conclusions that we're irrelevant and dying.We may not always be Top 10 or 15 but we're certainly not the bottom 50 and we're steadily rising. I think most of us here are excited or at the very least, content with that.
I don't disagree. No where am I saying Columbus is going to be last, losing population, dying, etc. What I'm saying is that other cities are positioning themselves to better attract the so called creative class.
Let's take the food scene for example. Is Columbus improving, sure it is. But definitely not as fast and as good when you compare it to other cities. When I go to places like Denver I'm blown away at the new up and coming options they have. Now that doesn't mean that Columbus sucks. It just means they aren't keeping up.
Take for example the nation blog Eater. "Eater is the source for people who care about dining and drinking in the nation's most important food cities." They started in NY and have branched out to cover many cities. But now they cover places like Portland, Denver, Charleston, Austin and Minneapolis. These cities are creating a name for themselves. So when future culinary students graduate they'll be more inclined to move to these cities.
Now again I'm not saying we shouldn't continue to cultivate the local people here. And I'm not saying that Columbus hasn't made great strides in the recent future with the resources it has. But to say to hell with outsiders we don't care what we think is not a model for future growth.
Posted 5 months ago # -
GCrites80s
5xNW
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I think the reason this thread turned into a real live one is because the thread title is full of superlatives.
Posted 5 months ago # -
InnerCore
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jbcmh81 said:
What time period were these numbers for? These cities look like the same ones that grew the most 2000-2010, a hot time for the Sun Belt. It's easy to get large numbers of any group when you already have high in-migration. These same cities also likely had high numbers of HS dropouts move there as well. I'm more interested in the % of total migration, as I think that's a far more accurate way to look at the numbers. I suspect, however, that without the housing boom, the 2010-2020 migration patterns will change a bit anyway.Edit: So they're for 2009-2011, which would include estimates. The 2010-2011 population estimates just assumed the same growth as the rest of the previous decade, so the point still stands.
Again why try to disprove everything you don't like. If these numbers would have said that Columbus leads the nation in net migration of young professionals you would be touting these numbers. Are you really going to try to slam the Brookings institute. So maybe they're off by a few percent either way, who cares. The point is that when you look at migration patterns young professional are being attracted to a certain type of city. It used to be NY, LA, Chi, etc. but because of cost of living and job growth among other things smaller cities like Denver, Portland, Austin, Charlotte have done well in creating an image that is inviting.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Walker
The KLD / Downtown / Gay Street
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InnerCore said:
The point is that when you look at migration patterns young professional are being attracted to a certain type of city. It used to be NY, LA, Chi, etc. but because of cost of living and job growth among other things smaller cities like Denver, Portland, Austin, Charlotte have done well in creating an image that is inviting.In order to steer this back into a more productive conversation, I have some questions...
Do you know specifically what those cities that you mention are doing differently that Columbus is not doing? Is it public policy? Is it something at the city, county, region or state level? Is it public-private partnerships? Is it driven by transportation infrastructure, incubator infrastructure, or housing infrastructure?
Or are we talking about some combination of all of the above? Or something intangible that you can't fix as easily with legislation or economic development plans?
Posted 5 months ago # -
jbcmh81
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InnerCore said:
Wow, the people I hang out with sound ignorant because they don't know about Columbus?? Okay. And my comment about moving my entire family was obviously tongue in cheek. I talking about things like net migration of young professionals and your commenting about my happiness???It's not that serious.
Look, I lived in Columbus until I was 18. Left to go into the military, then moved back to go to the Ohio State. I then moved out of the state not because I didn't like it but because I got a job offer in DC. I'm proud of where I grew up and have decided to move back to have my kids grow up with their families. Yeah I'd prefer they lived here, but whatever. I'd also prefer I hit the powerball.
I root for the Buckeyes (even while attending the University of Miami). Came back to Columbus to have my wedding here (Via Vecchia). And when I move I'll probably defend it to the death like most here. However when you move away and get used to hearing and seeing the criticism of your home city it allows you to not take the criticism so personal.
You can be happy living in Columbus while at the same rime recognize that because no one is really used to taking the metro they don't see a need for it. You can be happy that local people are deciding to move to the urban core while at the same time recognizing that were losing out on a lot of the top young professionals to other cities.
I live downtown, can walk to the grocery store, restaurant bar, museums and catch a heat game. But I'll be the first one to tell you that the people here in Miami are complete @ssholes and the traffic is completely insane. I go to the grocery store and no one speaks english. I'm sure there is a guy in a forum right now dumping on Miami. I'm not going to go into the thread and tell he that the traffic really isn't that bad. I'm going to agree and talk about what can be done to change it.
You're the one who brought up all these anonymous people you supposedly know who don't seem to know anything about Ohio, let alone its cities. If someone asked me about Florida, or Idaho, I sure as hell would know what the main city/cities are, and I would expect college graduates to know basic geography as well. It's completely ignorant to not know what you're talking about, but have formed an opinion already. And yes, your desire to talk trash, and let's not pretend like that's not what you're doing, indicates something other than Columbus' problems. After all, if it's not that serious, why did you feel the need to post?
I'm not taking it personally. I just don't respect this type of debate. Your entire point here seems to be to convince everyone else that Columbus sucks, no matter how much "I like the Buckeyes!" backtracking you want to offer now.
How do you know people haven't taken a metro before? I have lived in Mexico City, one of the most densely populated, urban cities in the world. They have extensive mass transit. I've personally ridden it all many many times. That's why I'm an advocate for Columbus getting expanded mass transit. But Columbus not having it does not mean I think it's not a great city, and I would never directly compare the two anyway. All cities have their own strengths and weaknesses, including those you have been fawning over in this thread. Personally, I find Charlotte to be a sprawling mess and the weather is awful. Them having a tiny light rail system does not change that view for me. There are a lot of cities on your best-of that I don't particularly care for. But I don't go to their city forums and feel the need to trash them or make lists on all the things I think they're doing wrong. You're not being constructive, you're being the opposite of it.
Posted 5 months ago # -
dubdave00
Dublin
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InnerCore said:
What I'm saying is that other cities are positioning themselves to better attract the so called creative class...But to say to hell with outsiders we don't care what we think is not a model for future growth.
Two points before the talking past each other becomes 10 pages:
1) No one is saying that other cities aren't better positioned in certain areas, nor is it surprising.
2) No one is saying "to hell with outsiders".Posted 5 months ago # -
jbcmh81
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InnerCore said:
I don't disagree. No where am I saying Columbus is going to be last, losing population, dying, etc. What I'm saying is that other cities are positioning themselves to better attract the so called creative class.Let's take the food scene for example. Is Columbus improving, sure it is. But definitely not as fast and as good when you compare it to other cities. When I go to places like Denver I'm blown away at the new up and coming options they have. Now that doesn't mean that Columbus sucks. It just means they aren't keeping up.
Take for example the nation blog Eater. "Eater is the source for people who care about dining and drinking in the nation's most important food cities." They started in NY and have branched out to cover many cities. But now they cover places like Portland, Denver, Charleston, Austin and Minneapolis. These cities are creating a name for themselves. So when future culinary students graduate they'll be more inclined to move to these cities.
Now again I'm not saying we shouldn't continue to cultivate the local people here. And I'm not saying that Columbus hasn't made great strides in the recent future with the resources it has. But to say to hell with outsiders we don't care what we think is not a model for future growth.
How exactly does one measure how fast the food scene is growing? By number of new restaurants? By how many times Forbes mentions it? You don't live in Columbus now, so how do you know how fast the food scene there is growing vs Denver, another city in which you don't live? What criteria are you using to measure the difference?
I write for a food blog that covers several cities across the world. None of the cities you just mentioned are on it. I guess that means nothing's going on there per your logic.
No one is saying to hell with outsiders. Where are you getting this?
Posted 5 months ago # -
ChrisSunami
King-Lincoln District
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InnerCore said:
Let's take the food scene for example. Is Columbus improving, sure it is. But definitely not as fast and as good when you compare it to other cities. When I go to places like Denver I'm blown away at the new up and coming options they have. Now that doesn't mean that Columbus sucks. It just means they aren't keeping up.This just seems flat-out wrong to me:
http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/local-food-national-news
http://alteatscolumbus.com
http://columbusfoodadventures.com/Perhaps when you go to Denver you seek out new places but when you come home, you stick to places you remember? Again, many of my top local restaurants didn't even exist when you left here.
Posted 5 months ago # -
jbcmh81
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Walker said:
In order to steer this back into a more productive conversation, I have some questions...Do you know specifically what those cities that you mention are doing differently that Columbus is not doing? Is it public policy? Is it something at the city, county, region or state level? Is it public-private partnerships? Is it driven by transportation infrastructure, incubator infrastructure, or housing infrastructure?
Or are we talking about some combination of all of the above? Or something intangible that you can't fix as easily with legislation or economic development plans?
It's all about economics, imo. These Sun Belt cities, for the most part, have been in a position to take advantage of the perceived (and real) decline of cities in the North. The suburban housing boom only helped that image, creating an economy on its own. Throw in the relatively low cost of living and these places boomed. I don't think it was specific policy. There is a reason that Columbus has long done better than its other Ohio counterparts: its economy. The recession seems to have equalized the playing field a bit more and many of the formerly declining Northern cities are coming back. I just don't see it being as easy for the Sun Belt the next decade or so as it was the last several.
Posted 5 months ago # -
InnerCore
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jbcmh81 said:
How exactly does one measure how fast the food scene is growing? By number of new restaurants? By how many times Forbes mentions it? You don't live in Columbus now, so how do you know how fast the food scene there is growing vs Denver, another city in which you don't live? What criteria are you using to measure the difference?I write for a food blog that covers several cities across the world. None of the cities you just mentioned are on it. I guess that means nothing's going on there per your logic.
No one is saying to hell with outsiders. Where are you getting this?
Because I travel to both places frequently. I look on yelp and places like this to see what are the new and up coming restaurants and then go visit them. For example I'm coming home for Christmas and New Years. I'll probably eat out 4 -5 restaurants during my stay. The other cities I visit have much more options.
Now obviously there is going to a blog somewhere that writes for pretty much every city. But my point is when you look nationally Columbus does not get any recognition for its food scene.
Find me any list of the top 20 cities for restaurants and Columbus won't be on that list. Now does that mean all the restaurants in Columbus suck? Of course not. But again if you're the next up and coming chef where are you going to choose to move to start your restaurant? A city that is know for a great restaurant scene. Or one that isn't?
Posted 5 months ago # -
InnerCore
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ChrisSunami said:
This just seems flat-out wrong to me:http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/local-food-national-news
http://alteatscolumbus.com
http://columbusfoodadventures.com/Perhaps when you go to Denver you seek out new places but when you come home, you stick to places you remember? Again, many of my top local restaurants didn't even exist when you left here.
No I just think you guys are very involved with you're community and come to place message board like this where you get to see all the good things that are going on here.
I'm talking more about the perception from the outside. If you look at any national ranking of the best cities for restaurants Columbus doesn't fall on any of them. Again that's not to say there aren't good restaurants here.
So someone is going to say, we don't care about those lists. Which is essentially say to hell with what outsides think.
If you're a foodie and you want to take a trip to a new city, so you look up a list from anywhere (Forbes, Zagat, Food and wine, Travel + Leisure, etc.) you're not going to find Columbus on any of those list.
On a side note has anyone scene the 5 year engagement? That sums up the sentiment I'm talking about when they make fun of the guy for giving up the job as a chef in SF to move to Ann Arbor. For all I know there might be good restaurants there. But that's not the perception or identity of Ann Arbor and it isn't the perception or identity in Columbus either.
Posted 5 months ago # -
joev
Merion Village
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InnerCore said:
If you're a foodie and you want to take a trip to a new city, so you look up a list from anywhere (Forbes...
LOL!
But seriously - do you think cities just show up in those publications? Or do you realize that a whole heck of a lot of people devote a lot of time, energy and passion to telling our story? You seem upset that Columbus is not at the top of every list. But you also seem to have no idea how quickly we're rising up the ranks, either.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Walker
The KLD / Downtown / Gay Street
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meltsintowonder
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InnerCore said:
Because I travel to both places frequently. I look on yelp and places like this to see what are the new and up coming restaurants and then go visit them. For example I'm coming home for Christmas and New Years. I'll probably eat out 4 -5 restaurants during my stay. The other cities I visit have much more options.Now obviously there is going to a blog somewhere that writes for pretty much every city. But my point is when you look nationally Columbus does not get any recognition for its food scene.
Find me any list of the top 20 cities for restaurants and Columbus won't be on that list. Now does that mean all the restaurants in Columbus suck? Of course not. But again if you're the next up and coming chef where are you going to choose to move to start your restaurant? A city that is know for a great restaurant scene. Or one that isn't?
Richard Rosendale opened a restaurant here! Wait...nevermind.
Posted 5 months ago # -
jbcmh81
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InnerCore said:
Because I travel to both places frequently. I look on yelp and places like this to see what are the new and up coming restaurants and then go visit them. For example I'm coming home for Christmas and New Years. I'll probably eat out 4 -5 restaurants during my stay. The other cities I visit have much more options.Now obviously there is going to a blog somewhere that writes for pretty much every city. But my point is when you look nationally Columbus does not get any recognition for its food scene.
Find me any list of the top 20 cities for restaurants and Columbus won't be on that list. Now does that mean all the restaurants in Columbus suck? Of course not. But again if you're the next up and coming chef where are you going to choose to move to start your restaurant? A city that is know for a great restaurant scene. Or one that isn't?
So there are not more than 4-5 options in Columbus? New or otherwise? There's been a few dozen new restaurants that have opened up around Downtown alone the last year, but you can't find more than 5 in the entire city? Really?
Not having the food scene get the recognition it should is not exactly the same thing as not having a food scene. Jeni's was pretty good even before it was known outside of North Market.
You seem extremely concerned about image and rankings, most of which are entirely subjective. Seems like an awful way to view food, let alone other catergories.
Posted 5 months ago # -
jbcmh81
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Walker said:
A lot of it is about economics, but if we're talking about the Millennial generation, there's a lot more intangible things that younger demographics gravitate toward that is either unrelated to economy, or only partly related.Agreed, but let's be honest, most of the high-growth Sun Belt is not exactly the epitome of urban living.
Posted 5 months ago #
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