Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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Suburban America: Problems and Promise
September 1, 2011 — 11:00 am
What is the future of the suburb in a changing world? We’ll hear from documentary film makers and local city planners about the phenomena “Suburbia.”
Guest: Ron Rudaitis, documentary filmmaker
TUNE IN: http://streaming.osu.edu/wosu/allsides/090111b.mp3
MORE: http://beta.wosu.org/allsides/suburban-america-problems-and-promise/
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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Just finally getting around to listening to this mp3, and really enjoyed the caller from Pickerington a little over halfway through. On the topic of a lack of socioeconomic diversity in certain types of subdivisions in certain suburbs, he says that he doesn't want to live in a socioeconomically diverse neighborhood because other people don't share his values.
Certainly entitled to his own personal preferences, but I couldn't help but imagine his setup serving as a huge blockade and blinders to the world. How does he know what sorts of values other people have if he has intentionally physically removed himself from interacting with people outside of his socioeconomic class?
On the flip side, I'm sure many people would disagree with him and have experienced first hand neighborhoods (and suburbs) that do have a more diverse range of residents and provide rich living experiences and friendships and neighborliness that goes beyond class boundaries.
jpizzow
580 N. Park St.
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Sitting here listening to this broadcast on a Friday night instead of out on the town. What a dork.
203 units of government in the 7 county region!? No laws making comprehensive planning mandatory? Sounds like we've got some catching up to do if we want to take more progressive and prevenative measures for our regions of the future. 203 UNITS OF GOVERNMENT!? I still can't believe that. Sounds like a little more consolidation and collaboration are needed to make things a little less complicated and little more efficient.
The woman from Galena was somewhat amusing when she said downtown is dangerous and nobody has goals. Too funny. It's dissappointing how many people in the region (even in downtown), wherever they may live, have opinions about another neighborhood when they obviously don't keep track of what's going on. It's like saying "inner urban areas have been blighted and dangerous for decades, so they must still all be blighted and dangerous. I mean, why wouldn't they. It's an urban area." It's as simple as taking 5 minutes out your day and reading the local newspaper. Then, more people may actually have a good idea of what's happening in their city and would less reluctant to make such false claims. Sounds like we need a better way of getting the word out to the entire region of the strides being made throughout the entire region.
Btw, nice letter Walker. I have a couple of friends looking to buy in your neck of the woods for some of the very same reasons. As a matter of fact, some of the listings I browsed the other day in MLS were quite enticing, I must say. I could own a home in good condition, 3 times the size of my apt for a couple hundred less a month than what I pay in rent. It would be REALLY hard to move from the Short North though.
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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jpizzow said:
The woman from Galena was somewhat amusing when she said downtown is dangerous and nobody has goals. Too funny. It's dissappointing how many people in the region (even in downtown), wherever they may live, have opinions about another neighborhood when they obviously don't keep track of what's going on.
She said she lived near Downtown, so I'd assume it was probably a rougher neighborhood. When she was referring to Downtown being dangerous and uncomfortable, she was referring to whatever neighborhood she lived in, and not Downtown proper. But it does all blur together for a lot of people, and certainly is a perception issue.
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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jpizzow said:
Btw, nice letter Walker. I have a couple of friends looking to buy in your neck of the woods for some of the very same reasons. As a matter of fact, some of the listings I browsed the other day in MLS were quite enticing, I must say. I could own a home in good condition, 3 times the size of my apt for a couple hundred less a month than what I pay in rent. It would be REALLY hard to move from the Short North though.
Yeah, our mortgage is cheaper than our rent was in German Village. ;) And that's with zero down on a 15 year loan. Very affordable over here.
But definitely a change up from a neighborhood like SN or GV with more walkable amenities nearby. We do miss having more of that, so that is a tradeoff. Gotta be willing to either walk a little further, bike a little further, bus a little further and bust out the car and drive too. ;)
GCrites80s
5xNW
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jpizzow said:
The woman from Galena was somewhat amusing when she said downtown is dangerous and nobody has goals. Too funny. It's dissappointing how many people in the region (even in downtown), wherever they may live, have opinions about another neighborhood when they obviously don't keep track of what's going on.
The woman from Galena probably doesn't recognize the goals of the downtowner as legitimate because they do not mirror her own. Out there, a lot of goals are about lawns, boats or pools which aren't really downtown concerns.
Regarding the Pickerington caller, do keep in mind that even before the suburbs, people tended to cluster around those of their same background, whether it was religious, ethnic, national or regional.
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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GCrites80s said:
Regarding the Pickerington caller, do keep in mind that even before the suburbs, people tended to cluster around those of their same background, whether it was religious, ethnic, national or regional.
I thought that most modern day minority ethnic enclaves are set up due to language barriers, closer family ties, and proximity to very specific resources and amenities.
I'm doubtful that an immigrant from Somolia moves to Columbus and chooses the Morse Road area because they don't want to live anywhere near other people who don't share their skin color or their income level.
GCrites80s
5xNW
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^Yes, exactly.
bldng4jstc
Downtown
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I feel the comment by Mr. Greene from ACP about providing options is key to Columbus. Columbus has the framework for great neighborhoods and that needs to be stressed. I want to live downtown with higher density and streetcars I should be able to do so. If the caller wants to stay in suburban Pataskala, then he can do so. Let the urban areas be urban and the suburbs be suburbs.
peanutnozone
Baltimore MD
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I haven't heard this yet as I'm at work but I thoroughly plan on doing so when I get home tonight.
I must say. I have gotten such a hard time or such opposition from people even by saying I live in an urban area (less so here than Columbus, but it still exists here) and I really try to see it from all sides. Some people DON'T value walkability. Some people WANT to drive everywhere and expect there will be room for their car wherever they go. Some people like open spaces, and quiet, etc. etc. I don't understand where this entitlement to all this stuff and space and resources comes from.
What just...KILLS...me is that my decision to live a very urbane existence is not just a personal preference but a conscious choice that is more sustainable and environmentally friendly. When people say they refuse to give up their gas-heavy SUVs and feel they DESERVE many acres and are not concerned with the waste of resources that can create, as if they could care less about their fellow humans and the effects it has...I just can't wrap my head around it, and it frustrates / confuses me to no end.
I'm not saying I'm 100% green all the time, I guess, but I really put an effort to do things that will benefit our planet and will have positive impact on my community and other communities we depend upon. Someone who just doesn't give a f___ about anyone but their own existence just...I can't understand it for the life of me.
sundown060
Merion Village
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jpizzow said:
Sitting here listening to this broadcast on a Friday night instead of out on the town. What a dork.203 units of government in the 7 county region!? No laws making comprehensive planning mandatory?
One thing that gets me about Franklin County is the township form of government still being in use. I just don't get it being used in a metro area, and I work for a township. Lots of people probably don't even know that townships provide service for their community. One of the most visible examples I remember of township/incorporated city was when the smoking ban went into effect for restaurants. Lennox and the strip club that used to be across the street from it (before it burned down) are in Clinton Township, not Columbus. So long after the city proper establishments started observing the ban, you could still get a table in the smoking section at Don Pablos.
In today's world, it's visible in public safety, too. The fire departments that serve Dublin, Hilliard, Grove City, Obetz, Canal Winchester, Groveport, Pickerington, Reynoldsburg, Gahanna, New Albany and New Rome are covered by townships. None of these cities have municipal fire departments. But because parts of Franklin County are still unincorporated by any given city, the townships still exist, and the county government still has some functionality. In a place like, say, Cuyahoga County, where every single square inch of land is incorporated by a city (Cleveland or any of the burbs), it's less complicated.
Other parts of the country have city/county based systems. I think townships have a larger role in more rural areas like Madison, Pickaway or Fairfield Counties. But in Franklin, or other metro area counties, I think the townships are struggling for relevance.
Asto comprehensive planning, I wonder what MORPC could do to be more effective at the regional level...
Thanks for bringing up the podcast. I'll check it out, too. :)
sundown
Merion Village
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Walker said:
I'm doubtful that an immigrant from Somolia moves to Columbus and chooses the Morse Road area because they don't want to live anywhere near other people who don't share their skin color or their income level.
Maybe not intentionally, but do you think that this and it's inverse may be mutually unintentionally exclusive sometimes?
PS- me and sundown060 are the same person. Can the 060 account be deleted? ;)
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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sundown said:
Maybe not intentionally, but do you think that this and it's inverse may be mutually unintentionally exclusive sometimes?
Oh, definitely. Lots of people have different reasons for living where they choose to live, and the larger side effects that those individual choices have on the communities becoming enclaves and the perceptions that surround those types of neighborhoods (both internal and external) can't really be assigned to any one individual. I do think it's something worth being mindful of as continued segregation (intentional or not) will only lead toward the type of confused mindset that the caller on Ann's show was exhibiting signs of. ;)
NEOBuckeye
Ohio At-Large
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sundown060 said:
One thing that gets me about Franklin County is the township form of government still being in use. I just don't get it being used in a metro area, and I work for a township.
The township as a form of government is outmoded, and accordingly, should be abolished completely. It was designed in a time before paved roads, when horseback was the fastest form of human transportation possible. Accordingly, townships (and counties) are sized as would be appropriate to 18th and early 19th century standards of travel and administration.
What once took half a day or more to traverse, however, can today be covered within mere minutes by car and similar forms of automated transport.
sundown060 said:
In a place like, say, Cuyahoga County, where every single square inch of land is incorporated by a city (Cleveland or any of the burbs), it's less complicated.
Uhh... not really. Just as in Franklin County and the Columbus/Central Ohio region, there are still too many municipalities in Greater Cleveland (e.g. Strongsville, Lakewood, Parma, Parma Heights, Cleveland Heights, Westlake, Eastlake, etc). We're not talking "cities" on the far flung outskirts of Cleveland proper either, like Lancaster or Circleville are in relation to Columbus. The multiple rings of suburbs are true extensions of the central city and would be officially so, except for the fact that they evolved from townships that were reluctant to cede their autonomy and were supported in their reluctance by myopic 19th century state laws.
Unfortunately, what could fairly easily have been a united and thriving city-region of 4 million people in NE Ohio is instead a fractured and incoherent morass both economically and politically. Aggressive annexation saved Columbus from this fate, but perhaps not indefinitely. Suburbs like Hilliard, Dublin and Westerville are really extensions of Columbus, but they increasingly see themselves as viable municipal entities separate from Columbus. This is how a region begins to become divided and loses momentum.
sundown060 said:Other parts of the country have city/county based systems. I think townships have a larger role in more rural areas like Madison, Pickaway or Fairfield Counties. But in Franklin, or other metro area counties, I think the townships are struggling for relevance.
Most city-county governments in the US aren't full consolidations. Usually some local aspect such as police or school districts remains separate, and some, such as Louisville, allow suburbs to remain incorporated. Covering five counties, New York City is by far the best example of a truly comprehensive regional government within the US. No separate municipalities or townships exist within the Five Boroughs.
The NYC metropolitan governance model is actually what I advocate for Columbus and for most major US cities and their regions. Good luck gathering support for it in the current highly reactionary political environment within the US, though. At least Russia and China seem to get that regional governance is the key to creating thriving cities in the 21st century.
myliftkk
Columbus, OH
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@NEO +1
The city of Orlando/Orange County Fl suffers from a most acute case of what you describe. In recent years, they've elected a mayor of Orange County in addition to the mayor of Orlando, not to mention in a metro area of nearly 2.5m, Orlando proper represents only about 185k people in its borders. Part of the reason that whole county is a suburban morass is because to do anything of substance across political boundaries down there you have to get every small town mayor/council to agree to something, which means nothing of substance gets done.
sundown
Merion Village
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NEOBuckeye said:
Uhh... not really. Just as in Franklin County and the Columbus/Central Ohio region, there are still too many municipalities in Greater Cleveland (e.g. Strongsville, Lakewood, Parma, Parma Heights, Cleveland Heights, Westlake, Eastlake, etc). We're not talking "cities" on the far flung outskirts of Cleveland proper either, like Lancaster or Circleville are in relation to Columbus. The multiple rings of suburbs are true extensions of the central city and would be officially so, except for the fact that they evolved from townships that were reluctant to cede their autonomy and were supported in their reluctance by myopic 19th century state laws.
Unfortunately, what could fairly easily have been a united and thriving city-region of 4 million people in NE Ohio is instead a fractured and incoherent morass both economically and politically. Aggressive annexation saved Columbus from this fate, but perhaps not indefinitely. Suburbs like Hilliard, Dublin and Westerville are really extensions of Columbus, but they increasingly see themselves as viable municipal entities separate from Columbus. This is how a region begins to become divided and loses momentum.
Most city-county governments in the US aren't full consolidations. Usually some local aspect such as police or school districts remains separate, and some, such as Louisville, allow suburbs to remain incorporated. Covering five counties, New York City is by far the best example of a truly comprehensive regional government within the US. No separate municipalities or townships exist within the Five Boroughs.
The NYC metropolitan governance model is actually what I advocate for Columbus and for most major US cities and their regions. Good luck gathering support for it in the current highly reactionary political environment within the US, though. At least Russia and China seem to get that regional governance is the key to creating thriving cities in the 21st century.
I guess what I was getting at when I said 'less complicated' was that everything was incorporated. I don't know that we'll see in our lifetimes a scenario where every fifedom between 271 and Lake Erie gives on it's boundary lines. But what I can offer from my side as an employee who interacts with township, county, and city government every day, is that it's less complicated when there aren't competing/overlapping jurisdictions and the possibility of annexation doesn't exist.
Your point about the larger suburbs in the Columbus area striving for identities of their own is a good one, and I think the point that Columbus snaked little lines of annexation outside 270 is important. The result from overannexation that Columbus (I think mostly under Lashutka, but it's debatable) is that the city does not have an appropriate amount of resources, services, or public safety protection to account for these areas. That in turn puts a demand on the suburbs to provide service to folks who live and work closer to one of their assets (a water line, a fire station, take your pick), but who are in the City of Columbus. Who is supposed to provide the service, and who is accountable financially? It varies, but the current formulas are straining, badly...
The most simple solution would be to adopt what Orleans Parish/NOLA and the City and County of Philadelphia have, which is consolidated boundaries. In NOLA, the Parish sheriff provides civil service and corrections protection while NOPD handles day to day policing. But if it's simple, is it the best fit for everyone? I dunno...
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