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Columbus Underground Messageboard » General Columbus Discussion » Transit

Streetcar: I even hate to bring this up...

(744 posts) (23720 views)
  • Started 1 year ago by greenhouse1014
  • Latest reply from johnwirtz

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  1. greenhouse1014

    greenhouse1014
    Columbus
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    I guess I didn't really think anyone would take that statement so seriously. To me, City Center is the town joke right now, so I figured it was well within limits of the statement. I used to work for City Center management (where the mall was also a big joke) and so learned a lot about malls, especially those put down in the middle of any downtown, and how the design of the City Center set it up for failure due to even some very simple issues that should have been raised. Taubman, who owned the City Center originally, was an architect and City Center was a vanity project and he designed it using throw-back, suburban-mall ideas of closing people in, not letting them know what was happening outside or what time it was, like a casino. But that was bad design for an urban shopping center, which we quickly learned. But, I digress.

    I have no real idea how the railcars work, nor what kind of turn radius a fixed wheel, rail vehicle would need to turn around. It was a bullshit statement, I admit that, but that is what is was meant to be. I'm more bothered about the MANNER about which knocking the statement down was undertaken. One particular poster has been repeatedly condescending to me and, while I'm not an expert at rail cars and city planning, I guess I thought I was allowed to have an opinion and question the rail without feeling like a whack-a-mole. It's not that I'm totally AGAINST the thing. I just don't understand the enthusiasm that so many have shown toward something that only the least of details have even been researched. I realize that the city has been dealing with the rail issue for quite some time now. I guess I figured they would have some basic details down that are important to me in determining whether or not I was in full support of the thing. Maybe I'm just not as optimistic as others. At the same time, I feel like actual public transportation is a more important issue than putting in a rail. There are several that disagree with me and, while I respect that, I think the rail is taking over discussion of the need for better transportation options for EVERYBODY. Throughout the whole ordeal, I have been cognizant of the fact that the rail is going to happen. That's pretty much a done deal. Then, I expressed hope, again, I guess born of my lack of optimism, that the limited route wouldn't be setting the rail up to fail. If we're going to do it, we might as well set the wheels in motion for it to be as successful as it could be. Then, I worried about the indie businesses in the Short North because I'd hate to see them adversely affected by rising property values that the rail may bring. The City Center thing was just me musing on what might happen on that end and where the rail might turn around and was never meant to be taken so seriously. I should have known that lifting the tension, no matter how clumsily, should have been avoided given the emotion and passion that has been shown throughout this discussion. In all, I have been abused, belittled and made to feel like an idiot for not being so optimistic about putting a rail up and down the street.

    Overall, I'm not pessimistic. I don't FEEL pessimistic. I would say I'm just not so optimistic. Doubtful at worst. I WAS here for Son of Heaven and Ameriflora. Regardless of how great Mike has been in the past, anyone is liable to make a bad decision (I know he had nothing to do with those except his part in City Council approvals, which I BELIEVE he was on, unless I'm wrong). I never thought that this post would generate such a shit storm of zealotry. I guess I also never thought that making a statement of belief would require me to be an expert on the subject.

    To anyone I may have offended by my sarcasm, clumsy or otherwise, general assholery, or anything else I may have said, please let me apologize. There's no real excuse except for the fact that I felt pushed into a corner and may have been lashing out. I'm really a nice guy if you would ever meet me.

    In closing, I really do hope the rail works out. I just wanted a few more details before I jumped in the pool.

    Posted 1 year ago # |
  2. greenhouse1014

    greenhouse1014
    Columbus
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    By the way, if you look at the average amount of time the Northstar thread took to get where this thread in now in both pages and posts, this one wins!

    Yeaaahhhhh, I win something...

    Yeah, ok, not really. Have fun.

    Posted 1 year ago # |
  3. greenhouse1014

    greenhouse1014
    Columbus
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  4. Walker

    Walker
    The KLD
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    greenhouse1014 wrote http://www.columbusunderground.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13391&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

    Yeah, sounds like downtown needs some TOD. ;)

    Posted 1 year ago # |
  5. surber17

    surber17

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    Went for a run down High Street this morning and couldnt help but thinking about how great it would be to have the streetcar running right now. I just kept thinking that even if it just ran from BW3's on Lane to Kroger on 5th how easy it would be for students to get groceries without using a car.

    Posted 7 months ago # |
  6. heresthecasey

    heresthecasey
    OSU
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    surber17 wrote >>
    Went for a run down High Street this morning and couldnt help but thinking about how great it would be to have the streetcar running right now. I just kept thinking that even if it just ran from BW3's on Lane to Kroger on 5th how easy it would be for students to get groceries without using a car.

    COTA bus?

    Posted 7 months ago # |
  7. lifeontwowheels

    lifeontwowheels
    Suburbia
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    heresthecasey wrote >>

    surber17 wrote >>
    Went for a run down High Street this morning and couldnt help but thinking about how great it would be to have the streetcar running right now. I just kept thinking that even if it just ran from BW3's on Lane to Kroger on 5th how easy it would be for students to get groceries without using a car.

    COTA bus?

    Or bike. Or get one of these little shopping cart things and walk it.

    :)

    Posted 7 months ago # |
  8. Walker

    Walker
    The KLD
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    Yes yes... locals can ride the bus, but I'm always surprised at the complete lack of conventioneers on the buses downtown. I didn't see a single Mennonite riding this past week, but watched hundreds of people walk from the center of Downtown up to the Convention Center. It's only a couple of blocks, but I'm positive that people would have ridden a streetcar if the option was there for them.

    Posted 7 months ago # |
  9. lifeontwowheels

    lifeontwowheels
    Suburbia
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    Walker wrote >>
    Yes yes... locals can ride the bus, but I'm always surprised at the complete lack of conventioneers on the buses downtown. I didn't see a single Mennonite riding this past week, but watched hundreds of people walk from the center of Downtown up to the Convention Center. It's only a couple of blocks, but I'm positive that people would have ridden a streetcar if the option was there for them.

    How much publicity is given to COTA during these conventions? Do the hotels advertise? Does the convention center do anything?

    I wonder how feasible it would be for COTA to work with the CC to offer bulk rate bus passes for the week.

    Posted 7 months ago # |
  10. heresthecasey

    heresthecasey
    OSU
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    Walker wrote >>
    Yes yes... locals can ride the bus, but I'm always surprised at the complete lack of conventioneers on the buses downtown. I didn't see a single Mennonite riding this past week, but watched hundreds of people walk from the center of Downtown up to the Convention Center. It's only a couple of blocks, but I'm positive that people would have ridden a streetcar if the option was there for them.

    I think that downtown, for just that couple of blocks from the capitol square hotels to the convention center its actually probably a good thing to get these people out onto the streets, walking around, and really experiencing our city. Downtown can always use some extra foot traffic, and it is only a very short, and quite pleasant walk. If only we had some exciting local retail to add to the mix along the way. :)

    Posted 7 months ago # |
  11. Thory

    Thory
    Italian Village
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    heresthecasey wrote:

    If only we had some exciting local retail to add to the mix along the way. :)

    Which, some argue, a streetcar would encourage if it passed by.

    Posted 7 months ago # |
  12. noktulo

    noktulo
    Columbus
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    lifeontwowheels wrote >>

    Walker wrote >>
    Yes yes... locals can ride the bus, but I'm always surprised at the complete lack of conventioneers on the buses downtown. I didn't see a single Mennonite riding this past week, but watched hundreds of people walk from the center of Downtown up to the Convention Center. It's only a couple of blocks, but I'm positive that people would have ridden a streetcar if the option was there for them.

    How much publicity is given to COTA during these conventions? Do the hotels advertise? Does the convention center do anything?
    I wonder how feasible it would be for COTA to work with the CC to offer bulk rate bus passes for the week.

    Even if they did, I think it's hard to get visitors to a city to ride buses. Most cities' bus systems are extremely complicated, and I for one wouldn't feel comfortable hopping on a bus in a city I'm not familiar with. Even if you thoroughly research beforehand, buses can be rerouted. However, in cities with rail transport, I usually feel at ease getting on a train or streetcar because the system's simpler, and you can see the tracks and know where you're going. It's less disconcerting when you're not worried the train is going to take an unexpected turn.

    For example, traveling in Europe, of the 10 cities I spent time in, the only place I ever got on a bus was Copenhagen, and that's because I was living there for an extended period and got used to the system. Every other city I used rail transport exclusively.

    Posted 7 months ago # |
  13. Core_Models

    Core_Models
    Columbus
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    Yep, busing is not seen as an amenity when trying to attract convention business.

    Posted 7 months ago # |
  14. johnwirtz

    johnwirtz
    Evanston, IL
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    Tyz,
    I think you're probably right, but I'm wondering how much of this you think could be solved with better marketing/branding issue for the buses? Could better maps, stops, and a unique paint job make the #2 more appealing for convention visitors. Why not create maps of COTA's key routes to make them look more "rail-like?"

    I'm not saying we shouldn't do the streetcar, but it would be nice to improve the bus system in the meantime. It would also be nice if visitors felt comfortable enough with the bus system to venture beyond 2.5 miles of High Street. There are other places worth visiting in Columbus.

    I thought the buses in Salzburg were pretty easy to understand.

    Posted 7 months ago # |
  15. lifeontwowheels

    lifeontwowheels
    Suburbia
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    johnwirtz wrote >>
    Tyz,
    I think you're probably right, but I'm wondering how much of this you think could be solved with better marketing/branding issue for the buses? Could better maps, stops, and a unique paint job make the #2 more appealing for convention visitors. Why not create maps of COTA's key routes to make them look more "rail-like?"
    I'm not saying we shouldn't do the streetcar, but it would be nice to improve the bus system in the meantime. It would also be nice if visitors felt comfortable enough with the bus system to venture beyond 2.5 miles of High Street. There are other places worth visiting in Columbus.
    I thought the buses in Salzburg were pretty easy to understand.

    A lot of the main routes (#1,2,10,7 off the top of my head) are pretty straight forward and I think with the right advertising could be used pretty well by out of towners. It's routes like the #16 up to Easton that even left me apprehensive the first time I rode it.

    Posted 7 months ago # |
  16. kessler

    kessler
    Georgian Heights
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    heresthecasey wrote >>

    Walker wrote >>
    Yes yes... locals can ride the bus, but I'm always surprised at the complete lack of conventioneers on the buses downtown. I didn't see a single Mennonite riding this past week, but watched hundreds of people walk from the center of Downtown up to the Convention Center. It's only a couple of blocks, but I'm positive that people would have ridden a streetcar if the option was there for them.

    I think that downtown, for just that couple of blocks from the capitol square hotels to the convention center its actually probably a good thing to get these people out onto the streets, walking around, and really experiencing our city. Downtown can always use some extra foot traffic, and it is only a very short, and quite pleasant walk. If only we had some exciting local retail to add to the mix along the way. :)

    Agreed.
    It was nice to see two Mennonite ladies walking on Mcdowell before the fireworks. Getting out and really experiencing our city is a good thing!

    Posted 7 months ago # |
  17. Columbusite

    Columbusite
    Peach District
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    Before the kiosks were installed, those Mennonites wandering around our mostly empty Downtown would just have to get lucky to stumble upon someplace open. I've also noticed wayfinding signs for places Downtown. Looks like someone is listening. Don't be surprised when they put up signs directing visitors to places outside of Downtown.

    You guys should be over streetcars and buses. I'm sure that like COTA I'd just leave the streetcars in the dust on my bike (why are there still stops just over a block apart on the #2?), although I'd enjoy the development they bring. Streetcars, though, are dead and the combo of light-rail and streetcars is just talk. People here just don't want it that badly and lack the vision and/or experience in cities that have them.

    As we can see on CU, most people don't want to fall back on improving our streets to make them attractive to businesses and developers. The city could obviously ignore them and go forward with such improvements regardless since we're talking about roads, so there would be negligible opposition because we already throw our transportation dollars there anyway. Once complete, all the naysayers would enjoy the results like they do in the Short North and Gay St.

    Forget streetcars. Improve the bus system and make our streets pedestrian and bike-friendly. And most importantly: do it right.

    Posted 7 months ago # |
  18. noktulo

    noktulo
    Columbus
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    What do you mean by "streetcars are dead"? Do you mean they've been killed off in Columbus?

    Posted 7 months ago # |
  19. Walker

    Walker
    The KLD
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    They were consolidated into the larger North Corridor Light Rail plan, which we've heard practically nothing on since January.

    I don't know if I'd call them completely dead though. If the Light Rail stimulus funding doesn't materialize it's not like the Streetcar plan can just be restored to what it was before and picked back up where it was left off from.

    Posted 6 months ago # |
  20. noktulo

    noktulo
    Columbus
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    Right. I don't think anything about the streetcar plan was flawed, I think the campaign for it was flawed. We have to explain better, because all people tend to hear is numbers ($millions!) in a vacuum. Like your editorial says, public transit funding needs to be compared to the ridiculous amount of funding highways get, and then it needs to be explained that streetcars have direct economic benefits, while highways are far less direct.

    Posted 6 months ago # |