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As someone on this site once said;
If you give money to rich people/businesses, it's a "bailout".
If you give money to poor people/businesses, it's an "investment".
I don 't see any difference. As another wise person said, why not do both!
Columbus Underground Messageboard » General Columbus Discussion » Sports
The Sale/Purchase of Nationwide Arena
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thirstychef
C-ville
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Posted 12 months ago # -
thirstychef
C-ville
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cheap said:
keep following that yellow brick road.So I am walking down this yellow brick road you told me to go down, and I think to my self; "what a might fine road, I wonder who built it?"
The I find out that this big construction company built it, and made good money doing so. I dug a little deeper and found out that the company had employed alot of little munchkins to build the yellow brick road, which was good because the munchkins all needed jobs.
The I thought; "did the magical wiz decide we needed this road?" No, no magical wiz decided this, but a group of elected officials decided to buy the road. Come to find out we all voted for these so called officials.
So I get to walk down this nice yellow brick road, and all these nice restaurants and businesses benefit from all the people who use the road. The road seems a bit expensive, but alot people and businesses find it useful, so it seems to be a good thing overall.
Thanks for the advice, I sure enjoyed the walk.
Posted 12 months ago # -
Buster Bluth
Columbus, OH
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thirstychef said:
So I am walking down this yellow brick road you told me to go down, and I think to my self; "what a might fine road, I wonder who built it?"The I find out that this big construction company built it, and made good money doing so. I dug a little deeper and found out that the company had employed alot of little munchkins to build the yellow brick road, which was good because the munchkins all needed jobs.
The I thought; "did the magical wiz decide we needed this road?" No, no magical wiz decided this, but a group of elected officials decided to buy the road. Come to find out we all voted for these so called officials.
So I get to walk down this nice yellow brick road, and all these nice restaurants and businesses benefit from all the people who use the road. The road seems a bit expensive, but alot people and businesses find it useful, so it seems to be a good thing overall.
Thanks for the advice, I sure enjoyed the walk.
...well there it is, elected officials are omniscient and their investments are always good ones.
Posted 12 months ago # -
thirstychef
C-ville
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Buster Bluth said:
...well there it is, elected officials are omniscient and their investments are always good ones.Not true for everyone,it is a matter of percieved value.
Some people think the Short North Arches at over cost of 3 million to the city are a wonderful addition to the area. I think they are bit overvalued, but I am comfortable with the city's decision, even though it did not work the first time......
Posted 12 months ago # -
NDaEast
Near East Side
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<Quote>Not true for everyone,it is a matter of percieved value.
Some people think the Short North Arches at over cost of 3 million to the city are a wonderful addition to the area. I think they are bit overvalued, but I am comfortable with the city's decision, even though it did not work the first time......<quote>The issue here is the $250,000,000 (that is a quarter of a BILLION dollars) bailout was enacted simply to keep local ownership of a failing private business enterprise -- and if the FCA has its way the public will not see how the money is spent on our PUBLICLY-OWNED arena. Will the bailout engender a round of bonuses for the Blue Jackets executives who have run this franchise into the ground -- just like on Wall Street?
The whole premise of the collapse of the Arena District if the Blue Jackets leave town is a lie. 80% of arena businesses are commercial office tenants -- their continued occupancy has nothing to do with whether or not the CBJ is in town 40 nights a year.
On your walk down this yellow brick road, did you note that when you look beyond the hype and into the substance: since 2004 the 43215 zip code has lost 6,317 jobs (going from 65,222 jobs in 2004, to 58,905 jobs in 2009 (Source: U.S. Census Bureau, American Fact Finder, County Business Patterns, 2004-2009.), and has lost 258 business establishments, going from 2761 to 2503 businesses (same source).
Zip Code 43201 (Short North) lost 14 business establishments and 2,381 jobs during that same period.
The Arena District is lively and interesting and a successful redevelopment of the former Pen site, but to say it is an economic success is not supported by the facts. Further, many of the jobs and businesses in the Arena District were simply poached from other areas of the city and the county.
The numbers are clear and unambiguous: since the Arena District was built out (at least from 2004 forward), jobs and businesses have diminished substantially in the area.
The propaganda pushed on us by public officials that this has to do with saving 8,000 jobs is bullsh*t. This was simply a bailout of two failing business enterprises, and a $250M net loss to the taxpayers of the City of Columbus who are absorbing the loss of these private businesses. To add insult to injury, this bailout comes on the heels of us citizens in good faith voting ourselves a 25% tax increase just two years ago, to fund basic city services (police and fire we were told). Now we've got enough money to kick into entertainment ventures??!!??
Nationwide Insurance is a $20B a year company, with annual profits approaching $1B. Nationwide's annual PROFITS are more than the entire annual operating budget of the City of Columbus -- and WE bailed THEM out? They have far more capacity to take the loss that they caused when they decided to privately fund the arena and invest in the Blue Jackets.
The Arena District will not shrivel up and die if the Blue Jackets go out of business or leave town. The NHL has clearly indicated its commitment to Columbus. The issue was the bad business decisions by those who owned the Blue Jackets. This bailout was only to keep the local owners of the Blue Jackets in their ownership position, and to avoid receivership when the banks refused to extend additional credit to the owners to support their business losses. Nationwide could have made all the concessions that the City of Columbus made on their behalf -- they had more resources to do so, and it was their mess in the first place.
Forbes Magazine on 4/24/12 ranked "The Least “Cost-Efficient” NHL Teams (2011-12 Regular Season)
Rank Team Cost/Point Efficiency Ratio
1 Columbus $821,538 133.7%
2 Toronto $812,625 132.3%
3 Buffalo $784,607 127.7%
4 Anaheim $721,319 117.4%
5 Calgary $716,583 116.6%
Takeaways:
- The Columbus Blue Jackets were the least efficient NHL team this season, performing at a clip that was roughly 34% less efficient than the league median..."With this record of incompetence and mismanagement, the Blue Jackets -- who also have a value of just $152M which makes it the 28th out of 30th most valuable NHL franchise team (or should I say third least valuable franchise?). These people have bungled their own money -- Yet we allow the President of the Blue Jackets the right to secretly spend OUR public dollars?
Citizens should be outraged at the bailout, and at the arrogance of the public officials who now declare their taxpayer supported actions should be secret from the people who fund them. The Mayor was clear, and I support his position that the CFA/Blue Jackets should be publicly accountable for their spending. Andrew Ginther was not clear where he stands on open access to public records: I would like to see where each member of Council -- who all voted to approve a bailout contract that had not yet been drafted -- stands on this issue.
Posted 12 months ago # -
cheap
Westgate
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NDaEast said:
The propaganda pushed on us by public officials that this has to do with saving 8,000 jobs is bullsh*t.
This was simply a bailout of two failing business enterprises, and a $250M net loss to the taxpayers of the City of Columbus who are absorbing the loss of these private businesses.
To add insult to injury, this bailout comes on the heels of us citizens in good faith voting ourselves a 25% tax increase just two years ago, to fund basic city services (police and fire we were told).
Now we've got enough money to kick into entertainment ventures??!!??evidently folks think a new flavor of ice cream is more important than the scam perpetrated on them by this city govt.
pretty lame.Posted 12 months ago # -
Buster Bluth
Columbus, OH
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Using stats from the worst part of the recession is just pathetic. I lol'd, but that's still pathetic.
Posted 12 months ago # -
NDaEast
Near East Side
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Buster Bluth said:
Using stats from the worst part of the recession is just pathetic. I lol'd, but that's still pathetic.Buster Bluth ... do you have any better statistics? (Let me answer ... "no.") Do the City and County -- which pushed this down our throats have any others? No, they don't. It is what it is, bud, and here is the link: http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/nav/jsf/pages/index.xhtml Don't take my word, look it up yourself -- there are no other years other than 2004 - 2009, I didn't edit anything -- those are the best and most reliable statistics out there and they were presented unalterated.
Let's talk about statistics ... 1) the OSU Glenn School study used by downtown to justify the bailout used ES 202 (employment) data from 2006 -- that is the best data the city had in making this quarter billion dollar decision (the mid-date of my 2004-2009 period must really have been the heart of the recession!) ?!!?; and 2) the 2009 Buser study that attempts to "quantify" the impact of the Arena District says "the estimates summarized in Tables 1 and 2 do not identify or net out portions of Arena District tax revenues that are the result of existing businesses that relocate to the Arena District from other parts of the region, as distinct from new businesses that generate net new tax revenues."
Since the power elites -- after 3 years of working on this corporate bailout of the richest people in Columbus -- can't present any statistics of new economic development activity caused by the Arena District, we've got to ask is there any real justification for the City to have presented an economic development argument? And when the best and most independent statistics available can be found in a 5 minute search of the Internet and do not support an economic development argument -- why wasn't that information ever provided as a part of the Arena bailout discussion? In fact, the opposite was represented: it was the basis of the power elites' public campaign.
The bottom line is that this community got fed a load of hooey in an effort to preserve local ownership of the Blue Jackets. We bailed out the richest of the rich, and we were fed easily refutable nonsense as justification.
So from the best statistics presented, to call the Arena District an economic engine is pure nonsense. The sad fact is that jobs and businesses both dropped nearly 10% in the zip code at the time of greatest growth of the Arena District. And the numbers reported by the City and other bailout supporters include existing business activity that moved from one part of the city to another.
Maybe we should all be asking, "why didn't our elected leaders -- you know, the ones we trust and pay to make good decisions on our behalf -- tell us this?"
Now before you think I'm just a sports hater ... let me tell you that I am a publicly funded sports arena supporter. I grew up going to "Cleveland MUNICIPAL Stadium" to watch the Browns and Indians all my youth. I played high school baseball and college football (Team Captain, Team MVP, All-League First Team). I am one of the minority of Columbusites who voted FOR a publicly funded arena. My son has played hockey for three years (continues to play) in the Blue Jackets' outreach program and got invited to skate on the Blue Line with the Jackets players during the National Anthem. We have probably been to more Jackets games than most anybody on this board (almost always through promotional tickets -- just like the rest of the crowd over the past two years). And oh yeah -- we took pictures by the Stanley Cup when it was in a traveling display and came to town earlier this year ("better take a picture quick, son, it might be the last time you'll see a Stanley Cup in Columbus"). So this isn't a person who loaths sports, hockey, or the Blue Jackets -- this is a person who believes that citizens deserve straight talk about a quarter billion dollar bailout -- not spin from elected officials.
Posted 12 months ago # -
NDaEast
Near East Side
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DavidF said:
Your employment numbers end at 2009, which coincidentally was I believe the height of the recession.You'd get my credibility if you used current numbers, not seriously outdated ones.
OK, let's look at the data before the recession in 43215 (2004-2006): loss of 1,944 jobs and 94 businesses. As per my post above, there is no more current data available. Can I get your credibility now? :-)
Posted 12 months ago # -
DavidF
Elysium Fields
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NDaEast said:
OK, let's look at the data before the recession in 43215 (2004-2006): loss of 1,944 jobs and 94 businesses. As per my post above, there is no more current data available. Can I get your credibility now? :-)I don't support the bailout, but that doesn't mean I think using non relevant data helps build credibility or support. I'd be surprised to find many areas that don't see a net loss of jobs during that period. That's kinda why it's called a recession.
So to answer your question. Nope. I'm not building an argument on this thread that needs to be supported. I think it's a scam, but I ain't gots me no infermation other than my gut feeling. ;)
Posted 12 months ago # -
thirstychef
C-ville
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cheap
Westgate
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thirstychef said:
Take it personal? much?well,he is speaking from experience.
i worked at Ohio center when it first opened 30 years ago.
it was hard work for shitty pay back then.
i sure it's the same thing at Nationwide,if not worse.
but hey,that shitty job has been saved.lol
Posted 12 months ago # -
misskitty
Columbus
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O’Brien: Arena dealings must be public
Prosecutor says purchase contract may be amended
Franklin County Prosecutor Ron O’Brien said his office is reviewing the purchase contract of Nationwide Arena and will push for necessary changes to ensure the taxpayer-owned facility is operated in public view.
O’Brien was responding to a story in Sunday’s Dispatch that detailed plans to transfer control of the arena to a private, nonprofit group that would meet behind closed doors and shield documents from public disclosure. The prosecutor said he would review whether the group could avoid the state’s open-meeting and open-records laws. If it can, he said he would seek to amend the contracts for the arena to require that the arena’s operator follow those laws.
Good
Posted 12 months ago # -
pedex
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cheap said:
well,he is speaking from experience.i worked at Ohio center when it first opened 30 years ago.
it was hard work for shitty pay back then.
i sure it's the same thing at Nationwide,if not worse.
but hey,that shitty job has been saved.lol
ya people have no perspective of what goes on
A place like the Arena has an army of sub $9 an hour people that get no benefits or overtime and work nights mostly, sometimes 24hrs or more without a break. The turnover rate is almost 100% per year. Of course many of these same people are responsible for setting up the very equipment and stuff that the customers will be sitting in during shows/events. As the host for shows/events the event itself gets charged for this stuff and it isn't all that much usually. The road crew is subcontracted out and local, they get paid more. The riggers are another contract and they do pretty well. At some events counting the cleaning crew(Aramark subcontract) there might be like 80 or so people running around. Most of the jobs aren't anything you can make a living at. Most are very part time jobs. The handful in the Blue Jacket front office do ok, and a handful from SMG, the rest are basically disposable temporary labor. My boss almost every season late in the season after 1/2 or more of his crew had quit would have to hire from temp agencies all the time to cover setting up events that involved lots of work like football or basketball sets. SMG also runs the convention center and the same sort of deal happens there too. At an event like a hockey game, it only takes about 200-250 tickets to pay for the entire crew that sets up and runs the event. The rest of the $$ goes to the top of the pyramid.
Posted 12 months ago # -
News
Columbus Underground
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These Jackets are getting to be more trouble than they’re worth
Thursday, May 24, 2012 11:13 am
by Jeff LongThey don’t miss a trick, these people, and I, for one, am tired of being played for a chump. The news that we won’t have any say in the operation of the arena we didn’t want is just the latest insult on top of the grand injury the Blue Jackets have dealt this town. If the people in charge of this team and this arena were merely indifferent to fans and taxpayers, just taking for granted that we’d support their alleged major-league operation and pay for the privilege— that would be one thing.
READ MORE: http://www.theotherpaper.com/news/article_f063a8a4-a5b2-11e1-82a5-001a4bcf887a.htmlPosted 11 months ago # -
News
Columbus Underground
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Get the Video Widget Posted 11 months ago #
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