TomOver
lovecause.org
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Bringing the discussion back to permaculture, if the core issue is love, how then do we meet our need for water, food, fiber, medicine, and so on in ways that promote better relations among humans and between humans and other animals ?
Here--in our bioregion- and now---2012 and beyond, what are some of the details of how we put our love into practice?
BTW, that's why I set up the forum part of my new site according to human needs. Here Now Beyond
Manatee
Granville
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Tom, the problem is not dogma. The problem is why and how people use the dogma. The dogma is meaningless play of light and shadow. I am not arguing for any side or the other. How to realize this love you speak of depends on the person and their way. Many people may understand things you and I do not. Also, rocks, waters, air and these things you mentioned understand things that we do not, and yes, I believe they have consciousness also. How to treat them? The same as all the others, and each in their own way. The middle way, which is loving kindness, which comes in all kinds of people, regardless of their religion or atheism.
The middle way also means I must acknowledge the society in which I live. In the context of permaculture this is challenging, but rewarding, and can be done in small ways. Sink down, and rest. There is little to do. The less we do, the better. By non-doing, we save energy, food, time, carbon.
I am not only claiming that the universe has consciousness, or that god or gods exist, I am also claiming that they do not, and I am also claiming 10,000 other ways of seeing. I am also claiming nothing at all. As to whether that is an assumption, all knowledge is assumption.
Who knows? Maybe I’ve finally flipped my lid. But if so it is a happy flipping. Fukuoka would certainly be in the same boat!
:)
TomOver
lovecause.org
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Manatee said:
Ha! Have I out-Tomed Tom?! :DWOOT
If WOOT means 'way out of topic,' not sure if I agree. Probably have rudely overdone it at times, derailing threads. I apologize for that.
But am glad to work against what I humbly see as a problem: narrow and fragmented public discourse. Get plenty of that from mainstream, especially TV news: burst sounds and images repetitively for a few days, with hyper-focus that often lacks historical and other context; then switch, in few days, to doing this with a set of issues seemingly unrelated to the previous ones.
Don' want that with this and other community-based media. Social progress, assuming it exists, would seem to require continuity and at least some degree of holism, right ?
See these threads as inter-related to many others on this and other sites. It's part of a neural network with virtually infinite possibilities.
BTW, all due respect, but much in your second-to-most-recent post makes no sense to me.
As for doing nothing, suggest we have eternity for that. In the meantime, let's engross ourselves in the possible. Let's do this regarding permaculture and other ways to improve relations among humans and between humans and other life forms.
Manatee
Granville
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Tom, "doing nothing" can be very important work. It doesn't mean stopping doing things. It means "non-doing" them, which to me, is almost a basic fundamental law of permaculture. Or at least, part of the (non) goal of permaculture.
"Non-doing" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei
The term "wu wei" is Taoist, but I do not consider wu wei to belong only to Taoism.
I referred to Fukuoka because he is one of the forefathers of permacultural techniques. His original insight was just this: do less. That doesn't mean he was lazy or sat around, and in fact he had to work hard all the time. But it does mean that instead of trying to impose his view upon the landscape, he tried to read the landscape and the plants and insects FIRST, and then began his work. This is still work that we need to do today.
Many of our society's ills, in my opinion, come from one of our most cherished impulses: to roll up our sleeves and "do something". Work is a beautiful thing, but not unless we have right view of what we work for. I would consider this right view to be the same described as the first "fold" of the eightfold path of Buddhism, but I do not consider right view as neccessarily Buddhist.
In the words of one famous Buddhist joke: "Don't just do something. Sit there!"
This not only means that we may benefit from meditating instead of mindlessly doing, but to me it also means to do less. To go with the flow.
If we look upon the totality of civilization, it is a lot of "doing", and the doing gets faster and more frenzied the more "advanced" the civilization gets. Our thoughts get faster and more convoluted. Simplicity is not valued. This is not permacultural.
We want to impress our thoughts and desires onto the landscape, instead of allowing it to have its own subjectivity. We do not stop to read the text of the non-sentient beings around us, because we would rather stay in our heads, or because we are "too busy".
The more, and faster we do, the more carbon is used.
Every immoderate emotion, every overanalytic thought, every thoughtless action, and even every well-intentioned but misaligned action we do, uses carbon, uses energy.
Thank you for talking with me about this!
I am not worried about being off-topic here. For once, there is only one topic. I believe that is true permaculture.
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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Good posts...very relevant to where I am at in life.
Manatee
Granville
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alexs said:
fixed
That is true.
Also, if we see our lack of right view as the main problem (particularly in regard to ecology), we can see, as Wendell Berry has said, many problems multiplying out of that problem. The economy then sells us piecemeal "solutions" for all of our symptoms of dis-ease.
So try this: We try to cure our sypmtoms of dis-ease with "immoderate emotion, overanalytic thought, thoughtless action, and even well-intentioned but misaligned action."
The problem I have with most discussions of permaculture, as well as most discussions of environmental issues in general, is that they are mechanistic, and do not go to the root of the problem. They are just more frenzied doing.
I know because I do it too! It sure feels good to "do something". But hopefully I will learn someday :)
local champion
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I think its great you guys dedicate your lives to your hobbies. Of course we knew of environmental activists, and aniaml, but who knew there were bicycling advocates? I mean that means there are advocates for scooters, skateboards, etc. It gives me hope that I can dedicate my life to one of my passions like video gaming, or even singing. Its great you can make your life revolve around these things.
Manatee
Granville
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local champion said:
I think its great you guys dedicate your lives to your hobbies. Of course we knew of environmental activists, and aniaml, but who knew there were bicycling advocates? I mean that means there are advocates for scooters, skateboards, etc. It gives me hope that I can dedicate my life to one of my passions like video gaming, or even singing. Its great you can make your life revolve around these things.
Is this sarcasm or in earnest?
Or in Ernest?
alexs
Limestone bluffs of the Scioto
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A classic example is the family farm using its own manure being replaced by factory farms that have to dispose of manure and buy fertilizer - the quote I heard was something like "They took a working solution and elegantly broke it into two problems."
local champion
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TomOver
lovecause.org
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Manatee said:
That is true.Also, if we see our lack of right view as the main problem (particularly in regard to ecology), we can see, as Wendell Berry has said, many problems multiplying out of that problem. The economy then sells us piecemeal "solutions" for all of our symptoms of dis-ease.
So try this: We try to cure our sypmtoms of dis-ease with "immoderate emotion, overanalytic thought, thoughtless action, and even well-intentioned but misaligned action."
The problem I have with most discussions of permaculture, as well as most discussions of environmental issues in general, is that they are mechanistic, and do not go to the root of the problem. They are just more frenzied doing.
I know because I do it too! It sure feels good to "do something". But hopefully I will learn someday :)
Plz say more about what the root of our eco problems are or link me to where you already said it. (Am saving reading your longer post above for one of the last things I do before shutting down the computer)
EDIT: is the root of our eco and other problems 'doing'?
TomOver
lovecause.org
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local champion said:
I think its great you guys dedicate your lives to your hobbies. Of course we knew of environmental activists, and aniaml, but who knew there were bicycling advocates? I mean that means there are advocates for scooters, skateboards, etc. It gives me hope that I can dedicate my life to one of my passions like video gaming, or even singing. Its great you can make your life revolve around these things.
Cool. Am singing much of the time. You sing in what genres and in what register ?
Got good range, tone, rhythm and expressive ability, but have struggled with finding venues and genres that seem meaningful to me.
Plan to busk w/ vocals, guitar and--on other occasions---drum-kit made of re-purposed materials.
Wanted it to be folk, activist, and protest music, but the core message is love.
derm
Grandview
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Got to the future awesome place for some maintenance today. Put half ton of stone in the driveway ruts near the top of the hill. Probably need another load or two to smooth it out better. Then hooked up the brushhog to the tractor and mowed for a couple hours. Broke the decompression cable when I went to shut it down so had to shut it off with a wrench. Otherwise it was a Good day. Old Orange is due for some maintenance. The place is mostly mowed so probably a good time to shade tree mechanic it. Brambles just started, picked a couple pints, but ate them then. Next week will be all U can eat.
Manatee
Granville
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Ha, "Old Orange"-- this reminded me of this old farmer who my friend used to work for. He had a drink he called a "Big Orange"-- I believe it was just a tall orange plastic glass filled with ice, and then filled with whiskey.
One of them fancy drinks I guess!
derm
Grandview
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Manatee said:
Ha, "Old Orange"-- this reminded me of this old farmer who my friend used to work for. He had a drink he called a "Big Orange"-- I believe it was just a tall orange plastic glass filled with ice, and then filled with whiskey.One of them fancy drinks I guess!
My "Old Orange" is a Kubota B7100HST from about 1980 or so, and it will be getting itself under a shade tree next week for a new compression cable, and general tune up. It is super cool. I highly recommend everyone on CU get themself a tractor.
TomOver
lovecause.org
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derm said:
I highly recommend everyone on CU get themself a tractor.
As a thought experiment, would that, generally, be better than everyone having a private auto?
Suggest reasons for burning gasoline or diesel and emitting CO2 to run a tractor for growing food, fiber, and perhaps also medicine seem better than those for using over-sized vehicles for what are often single-occupancy trips that could be doable---in many urban and suburban areas--- with public or human-powered transport if we set our minds to it.
Feeding hundreds of millions in this country or billions globally without mechanization might be tougher than achieving saner transport of people and goods.
Edit: But as for automobiles, they seem more justified in rural than in suburban or urban areas. For example, small and mid-size farmers often have to use trucks to get their food to market.
derm
Grandview
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Started clearing the upper area of the someday homestead. This spot on the top of the ridge gets good sun, good drainage and will become an orchard. Cleared about an half acre. Will also be super awesome for spotlight tag.
The tall tree straight ahead is a persimmon, the smaller one right of it is a pear. Had both fruits two weeks ago while up there.
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