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Outliers - Malcolm Gladwell

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Started 3 years ago by jeff_r
Latest reply from nexttuesday

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jeff_r

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jeff wrote
KSquared wrote
Just finished this. Gladwell is always an interesting read.
I facilitate a business/professional development book discussion group for my library. I think Outliers is going to be our next pick.
I thought I'd start a thread for this one since it seems like there might be good stuff to discuss.
I'm only at the beginning, but it appears that Gladwell is lining up against some strongly held cultural norms. The American belief in individual achievement, coupled with our presumptions about meritocracy and level playing fields are deeply ingrained in our culture. Challenging those beliefs and presumptions strikes me as a pretty bold move.

Posted 3 years ago #
KSquared
Literally Hell
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I need to re-read this before trying to comment further I think and I let someone borrow it so I cannot go back and verify my memory of the ideas presented, which goes against my nerdish nature, but I'll try anyway.
I do think that his ideas are pretty bold,and it actually made me stop and think about some of the ideas I have held about individual accomplishment. I like that he points to both individual potential and circumstances as being important, as I think that Americans like to beleive that all you need is hard work. From what he is saying, the hard work is essential (he states that it takes about 10,000 hours of practice to be a virtuoso at something) coupled with opportunities that allow for that level of dedication. I had no idea about the "breaks" that Bill Gates had and I found the study on the hockey players to be interesting as well.
It definitely made me happy I started my daughter in school late.
I read this on an airplane (not an ideal environment) so once I get my copy back, I plan to post more, because this was damn interesting.

Posted 3 years ago #
Mercurius
First Avenue
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Just saw this!
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/16/opinion/16brooks.html?em
Itâ€™s certainly going to be the next book on my list. It seems to support my views on luck egalitarianism.

Posted 3 years ago #
jeff_r

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Mercurius wrote Just saw this!
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/16/opinion/16brooks.html?em
Itâ€™s certainly going to be the next book on my list. It seems to support my views on luck egalitarianism.
That's a pretty fair summation. Culturally, I think we are inclined to ascribe success more to individual effort than larger systemic factors. I'm not sure why that is.
...and that circa 1989 headshot of David Brooks is pretty funny too. If I weren't so busy being Lyndsey Graham, that'd be my new avatar!

Posted 3 years ago #
jeff_r

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Mercurius wrote Just saw this!
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/16/opinion/16brooks.html?em
Itâ€™s certainly going to be the next book on my list. It seems to support my views on luck egalitarianism.
Gladwell responds:
http://gladwell.typepad.com/gladwellcom/2008/12/brooks-on-outliers.html

Posted 3 years ago #
asil
Worthington
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I'm about half way through this book and am looking forward to discussing it. I've found it pretty fascinating so far. The 10,000 hour rule was interesting but also a reaffirmation at how lazy I am :) Yes, boys and girls, success takes a lot of work. And the feel of the book overall correlates to one of my favorite quotes from Ben Franklin: "I am a strong believer in luck and I find the harder I work the more I have of it". I'll post again with my thoughts after I've finished the read. Thanks for adding this to the list!

Posted 3 years ago #
SJT

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I love his writing so far. I finished Blink a few days again- I got it first because I heard him talking about it in an interview& liked the premise. My man just picked up Tipping Point for me because I liked it so much. Next stop is definitely going to be Outliers!

Posted 3 years ago #
asil
Worthington
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SJT wrote >>
I finished Blink

What did you think of Blink? That wast just recommended to me last night so I haven't had a chance to check it out yet but it sounded worthwhile.

Posted 3 years ago #
JonMyers
HCMC ✈
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I've started reading Outliers and am on about the second chapter. I was initially discouraged by the NYTimes review, but decided to go for it after reading his article on achievement in the New Yorker. I'm glad I did. I love the accessibility of his writing style.

Posted 3 years ago #
DawonHawkins
Sixty Spring (Downtown Columbus)
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Just got this book right before the holiday. Looking forward to diving in this weekend!

Posted 3 years ago #
Ryan Morgan

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Gladwell on Charlie Rose from 12/19:

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/9855

Among many notable things, this guy has unbelievable hair. One of the few people who can make jealous about not having any. Him and Charly Bauer.

Posted 3 years ago #
Ryan Morgan

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putneyswope wrote >>
Gladwell on Charlie Rose from 12/19:
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/9855
Among many notable things, this guy has unbelievable hair. One of the few people who can make me jealous about not having any. Him and Charly Bauer.

Posted 3 years ago #
jeff_r

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asil wrote >>
I'm about half way through this book and am looking forward to discussing it. I've found it pretty fascinating so far. The 10,000 hour rule was interesting but also a reaffirmation at how lazy I am :) Yes, boys and girls, success takes a lot of work. And the feel of the book overall correlates to one of my favorite quotes from Ben Franklin: "I am a strong believer in luck and I find the harder I work the more I have of it". I'll post again with my thoughts after I've finished the read. Thanks for adding this to the list!

There's no doubt that effort and hard work contribute to success, but I felt like thematically the book was a lot more interested in the external (and often unacknowledged) factors that contribute to success.

Posted 3 years ago #
JonMyers
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asil wrote >>
I'm about half way through this book and am looking forward to discussing it. I've found it pretty fascinating so far. The 10,000 hour rule was interesting but also a reaffirmation at how lazy I am :) Yes, boys and girls, success takes a lot of work. And the feel of the book overall correlates to one of my favorite quotes from Ben Franklin: "I am a strong believer in luck and I find the harder I work the more I have of it". I'll post again with my thoughts after I've finished the read. Thanks for adding this to the list!

I kept fixating on the 10,000 hour figure as well. Oddly, I felt like this contradicts the set up in the beginning of the book, which seems to underscore "hard work". Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Posted 3 years ago #
jeff_r

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JonMyers wrote >>
I kept fixating on the 10,000 hour figure as well. Oddly, I felt like this contradicts the set up in the beginning of the book, which seems to underscore "hard work". Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

I don't have a copy of the book handy right now, but I seem to recall that every instance of the "10,000 hour rule" was presented in the context of additional factors beyond the simple measure of hours logged. For example, computer programmers who had the opportunity to work with state of the art machines, bands who had the opportunity to hone their craft in Hamburg for months at a time, and students who had the advantage of an engaged parents group.

What I got from that section was this: yes, success needs hard work, but it's not always awarded on that alone. Instead, we find success is often doled out on the basis of some pretty random external factors, many of which aren't available to everyone.

Posted 3 years ago #
Ryan Morgan

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Yes. Hard work -- thousands of hours of deliberate practice (not just practice) -- AND circumstance.

E.g.: Jobs with unprecedented access to new technology right down the street -- plus the will and discipline to program 2:00am until 6:00am or whatever it was; The Beatles sweating it out in continuous 7-hr gigs in that strip joint -- BEFORE the British Invasion.

Hours and hours of deliberate practice. PLUS fortunate circumstance.

Sort of how like the time was just right for Obama, no?

Posted 3 years ago #
JonMyers
HCMC ✈
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Jeff, I would absolutely agree with what you're saying, however a thought I kept crunching on though is this.. Exclusive, unprecedented access. If everyone had the opportunity to work on terminals as Gates had then it would reduce the value of that work.

Posted 3 years ago #
cr0m
"Lower" Hilliard
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Ksquared recommended Outliers to me. I liked it. Just started reading Stumbling on Happiness. I picked it up because of Gladwell's comments on the books cover.

http://www.randomhouse.com/kvpa/gilbert/

Posted 3 years ago #
lousygolfer45

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What I took from the 10,000 hour rule was simply that to master a skill you need to put in at least that amount of time. Access was a huge factor and opportunity as well. You CANNOT underestimate era. Like Gladwell points out. The beetles, Jobs, Gates, etc all had opportunities to master these skills at a young age. (late teenagers). By the time they were 25-28 y/o when the rest of the world is learning about the new wave, these guys already were masters, which allows them to be the leaders in their arenas.

How many people will achieve 10,000 in a skill that catches their eye once they are 30 and in a career? It's just catch up the rest of the way.

Access and opportunity are necessary, but also timing of access and opportunity.

Posted 2 years ago #
bmshellb5
Dennison Place
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I'm glad there is a thread about this. I read The Tipping Point by Gladwell a few years ago and thought the book was incredibly interesting. A "down and out" (he was offered a job with Nestle as a food scientist, later to have the offer revoked) coworker and I were just talking about egalitarianism in general and opportunity, so this will be a good recommendation for both us.

Posted 2 years ago #