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Less personal bickering please. Let's keep this topic civil. Thanks.
Columbus Underground Messageboard » General Columbus Discussion
NYT: The Myth of Sustainable Meat
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rus
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Red Sun Rising said:
I never said anything you just said above. I've compared the systems. I never said anything about a reeducation camp. Paying someone to go school has been been a pretty socially acceptable way of educating the population to date.Columbusfoodie can't live on a vegan diet. Your recommendation was for her to consult people pushing fruit juice and gummy bears as "experts in plant based nutrition".
You advocated reeducation camps here, which was a follow on to the child molester comments.
Posted 1 year ago # -
columbusfoodie
West Side
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Red Sun Rising said:
Perhaps with modern medical advancements what has been done to you already can be undone. They can grow entire body parts from stem sells in a matter of days now, perhaps you can have your complete stomach returned to you again one day.
http://singularityhub.com/2010/03/23/first-child-receives-organ-transplant-created-with-stem-cells/As to my ability to survive if SHTF scenario comes to pass, I'd say my chances are better than average, and probably, given your health conditions, even better that yours. It is knowledge, attitude, preparedness and resources that determine whether one can survive when the system collapses. I'm in excellent physical, nutritional and mental health, I've made it my business to be informed on how to negotiate the choice I've made to be vegan, under most circumstances. It is simply programming. You can reprogram yourself, you don't have to accept the mantra of the masses. And frankly, we will only know how we will fare when the rubber meets the road. Seriously, how long do you think you could survive when all the hunters take up their rifles and wipe out all the wildlife in a free for all? It will be the foragers who know how to live off plants that will outlive the hunters. My odds of being in the wilderness with bright clothing are probably going to increase my odds of not being mistaken by hunters as prey either. I'd even suggest that your odds of becoming human prey, increase in a post apocalyptic scenario, if the majority of what is left surviving believes they must have meat to survive, because at the end of the day, we are animals, and as long as we don't eat human organs, but only human meat, we will be able to survive on that too, if necessary.
As Rus and I have discussed, those of us not on any medications and using plant products are going to have the least toxic flesh to consume....I think a vegan world would certainly ensure people would know how to survive without considering or resorting to cannibalism.
Here is some information that anyone concerned about surviving on plants can use:
http://foraging.com/OK, back to answering your original set of questions to me...
Why on earth would I WANT my pre-surgery configuration back? I've staved off a number of wolves, permanently - namely high cholesterol, diabetes, venous insufficiency, sleep apnea, cardiomegaly, and have lessened (but not stopped, as the damage was already done because of the above disease processes before I had my surgeries) the effects of peripheral neuropathy, osteoarthritis and a frayed meniscus. If you'd like me (once again, since we've already discussed ad nauseum) to point out peer reviewed studies that show the beneficial effect bariatric surgery has on the above disease processes, even if no weight is ever lost, just say the word. I'd advise you to start with the Scopinaro report, the link to which I've posted to you in my last response.
Are you sure that your chances of being able to survive a "SHTF" scenario are better than mine? Are you sure that your health is better than mine? My last set of labs were darn near picture perfect. Perfect cholesterol (even HDL, so I guess all that physical therapy I did (3 hrs a day, 5 days a week) had a beneficial effect), perfect blood sugar, normal liver function despite previous liver damage, a fighting weight of ~200 lbs. for the first time in my adult life, no real sleep apnea to speak of (P. says I don't even snore anymore). I'm taking very little medication outside of the vitamins, minerals, and calcium supplementation I knew I'd have to do going in. I've stopped every single disease process above and reversed some of them, all controlled by the residual effects of bariatric surgery and diet. Not drugs. So, I'm pretty confident that I'd likely need less ongoing medical care than you in a post-apocalyptic situation. I know how to dispatch and process my own protein sources, and know how to prepare them safely so I don't kill myself or others with food-bourne organisms. I, as an avid gardener, know how to grow and harvest my own food, and how to prepare and preserve it so I don't go hungry in the winter. The only way in which we wouldn't be evenly matched is repopulating the Earth, as I have always had fertility struggles and that remains a problem beyond my control (especially so now, as I will be 40 this year and nearly every woman's fertility takes a nose dive anyway starting at age 35). But then again, studies have shown that many vegans don't ovulate to begin with (or do so rarely), so who knows? Too many unknown factors to really make a fair comparison, given your lack of transparency about your own health - read: I'd pit one of my lab result reports against one of yours in a heartbeat, let an objective medical professional look at both without knowing whose is whose, and decide for themselves which one of us is healthier - I'm game if you are.
In one study called “Dieting influences the menstrual cycle: vegetarian versus nonvegetarian diet,” 18 healthy, normal-weight women aged 19 to 27 years who had regular ovulatory menstrual cycles volunteered for a study. Nine women followed a vegetarian diet and nine a nonvegetarian diet. Both groups lost an average of 1 kg body weight/week. Seven of nine women in the vegetarian group became anovulatory while seven of nine women in the nonvegetarian diet group maintained ovulatory cycles with no changes in cycle length or in the length of the follicular phase. During the vegetarian diet, the average luteinizing hormone (LH) values were significantly decreased during the midcycle and the luteal phase. Estradiol (E2) and progesterone (P) values were significantly lower during the luteal phase. In contrast, the nonvegetarian group did not show significant reduction of LH, E2, and P values during any part of the menstrual cycle." (Pirke KM, et al: Fertil Steril 1986 Dec;46(6):1083-8)
And I already made it the brink of death and back, despite 98% odds against me even surviving, let alone making a full recovery. So I've either got someone up there looking out for me, or a lot of people sending good mojo and healing thoughts my way when push came to shove. I'm a fighter, and death will never take me quietly, mark my words. And your mental health is still very much in question. I may be many, many things, but I am very sane. And don't show sociopathic disregard for humans.
You ask how the world would survive if hunters wiped out all the wildlife. I have known many hunters in my time, and have never known a single one to waste a single ounce of anything edible. It's not about sport to them - it's about feeding their families. If anything, they practice conservation to a fault. Deer overpopulation is a real problem, which is why hunters are encouraged to take their bag limit. A local meat processor takes part in a program that uses deer meat to help feed the homeless. So trust me when I say if there's any danger, it's not from the hunters. They kill what they need, and eat what they kill. They teach their children a healthy respect for firearms and gun safety, as their fathers taught to them. Honestly? I'd be more worried about guns in the hands of activist vegans, who no longer have law and order to keep them from taking out a little vigilante justice in the name of animal liberation. And without knowing how to use, clean, safely load and unload a gun, yikes. I shudder to think of the ramifications. Oh, and a by the way - I may be an omnivore, but I know how to forage too.
And I fail how to see how your brain is making the connection between survival and eating humans. Ew. Seriously? I'm an omnivore, not a cannibal or zombie. But nice to see that your mind works that way, where you'd consider eating people before eating animals. I'd sooner eat a grub for protein before I'd start hacking away at my husband.
None of my current medications are so vital to my survival that I couldn't survive without them if necessary. Talking about maintenance meds, here - not acute care meds, because if it comes down to an infection that would kill us if left untreated we're both pretty fucked.
Will answer your other questions in a few...
Posted 1 year ago # -
Corrin Radd
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Wow did this discussion take a turn towards insanity. What a brilliant proof:
1. Some people undergo radical elective surgery to intentionally compromise their digestive systems.
2. Some of those who have elected this surgery cannot thrive on a vegan diet.
3. Even with voluntarily compromised digestive systems, those who undergo the surgery are still technically human.
4. Therefore, a vegan diet is not the optimal diet for humans.That's truly amazing work. Thanks internet. I'll be sharing that for years to come as evidence of just how desperate and full of it you guys are.
There you go rus--you can add people who undergo radical elective surgery to intentionally compromise their digestive systems to your list of evidence which includes your anecdotes, some other random internet folks' anecdotes, some attention-seeking blogger's anecdotes, some vanity press publications, an ad for a doctor who offers anecdotes but no science, and a poorly researched, misleading article about raw foodists. I, for one, am convinced.
Give it up RSR. You can't beat that.
Posted 1 year ago # -
columbusfoodie
West Side
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Red Sun Rising said:
Neither Rus, or his examples, were ever "true believers".Tasha lived in Saudi Arabia (so what, you actually think the local expat clinic has vegan nutrition experts on hand?) She said her sympathetic "doctor", not a nutritionist, gave her advice, and Tasha refused the advice of vegan expert nutritionists- Here is the proof:
Here is Lierre Keith talking about her "vegan" diet, in this radio interview she admits she was "gorging on eggs and diary every chance she got", that is not a committed vegan or "true believer" (the interviewer is annoying and I don't like his commentary much but you get to hear Leirre admit she wasn't ever a vegan, as well as make some ridiculous assertions about vegan cheating on beef all the time):
Get the Flash Videos The experts in nutrition know this is fact:
http://www.theveganrd.com/2011/11/countering-claims-against-vegan-diets.htmlIf you want to be the best at tennis you get tennis lessons from a tennis pro, not a high physical education generalist. Same goes for a plant based diet. Family practitioners do not have the know how to advise on plant based diets unless they have been specifically trained to do so. Basic general annual CME doesn't cover it.
These are the facts:
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/2009_ADA_position_paper.pdfTell me again which degrees Dr. Popper holds, from which institutions of higher learning, and which peer reviewed journal her doctoral dissertation(s) were published in? And please tell me how she's qualified to give medical or dietary advice at all? Ohio has very strict licensing standards with regards to individuals doling out nutritional advice or expertise. If she is, in fact, qualified to dispense said advice, I'm sure she'd want that info to be front and center lest she comes upon the ire of said licensing bodies...
If she truly is as qualified as you say she is, I'm sure she'd be perfectly comfortable disclosing her qualifications. Still waiting.
Posted 1 year ago # -
gramarye
In Exile
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Corrin Radd said:
Wow did this discussion take a turn towards insanity. What a brilliant proof:1. Some people undergo radical elective surgery to intentionally compromise their digestive systems.
2. Some of those who have elected this surgery cannot thrive on a vegan diet.
3. Even with voluntarily compromised digestive systems, those who undergo the surgery are still technically human.
4. Therefore, a vegan diet is not the optimal diet for humans.That's truly amazing work. Thanks internet. I'll be sharing that for years to come as evidence of just how desperate and full of it you guys are.
There you go rus--you can add people who undergo radical elective surgery to intentionally compromise their digestive systems to your list of evidence which includes your anecdotes, some other random internet folks' anecdotes, some attention-seeking blogger's anecdotes, some vanity press publications, an ad for a doctor who offers anecdotes but no science, and a poorly researched, misleading article about raw foodists. I, for one, am convinced.
Give it up RSR. You can't beat that.
"Technically human" is my favorite line from this propaganda piece. Sheesh, you couldn't even bring yourself to say "still human?"
Posted 1 year ago # -
columbusfoodie
West Side
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Red Sun Rising said:
1. Pam Popper has a legacy business from selling Juice Plus which made her financially independent (from which she currently earns residuals on to the tune of multimillion dollars annually from what I understand) which freed up her time and paid for her degrees, although honestly, I don't know whether your blogger is entirely accurate on her stats. If you meet her, she is a high functioning and dynamic individual and I wouldn’t doubt her ability to achieve any of her goals, including multiple degrees in a short period of time.2. I highly doubt she recommends the gummy bear treats to diabetic children as a daily supplement; they are stocked as a “treat” because kids will still want treats from time to time and they certainly can't be worse than any gummy bear on the market. Dr. Popper is pretty well known for being adamant that supplements are not necessary and the Juice Plus Complete powder was really used for masking the bitterness of the brewers yeast that she had on her recipe (I'm sure the additional distributorship members were certainly part of her plan and it was pretty transparent to anyone working there. Her Big and Healthy Cookbook had much the same feel to it when the recipes within the book called for many of the dehydrated soup mixes they sold there). The ingredients list on the complete powder was drastically different than that gummy bear treat you erroneously asserted as a “recommendation” to diabetic children. Sounds like you are still putting a little too much stock in the online blogging community.
3. As far as her certified instructors becoming juice plus distributors, is a bit...interesting (being kind, I've heard other not so kind terms), and it was part of her program at some point if you worked with her for numerous reasons, some of the ones I'm aware of had to do with mass communications tools since her certified wellness consultants are located all over the country and being a distributor connected people to those tools (for a lot less than buying them independently) to stay abreast on the latest research studies she would review with them to keep her certified consultants current on the latest information, and since the juice plus complete powder (with an entirely different nutritional profile than the gummy bears above) was something that was formerly part of her breakfast shake recipe, it was also a way to get a good discount off the product as a distributor. Incidentally, in 2009, she changed that breakfast shake recipe, eliminating the Juice Plus Complete and replaced it with a protein powder from other whole foods with no added sugars, because virtually everyone in the program criticized that departure from the "avoid processed foods and supplements (except B12- especially if people aren’t consuming brewer’s yeast, nutritional yeast or algae)" standard she advocates.
4. Dr. Popper has plenty of experience working with bariatric patients, perhaps you could investigate who they were (many did testimonials and authorized them for display on her organization’s walls) and find out what their experience was. If you don't trust her, fine, she was just one suggestion who happens to be local.
5. I didn't suggest that any of these physicians were experts in bariatric follow-up; I specifically stated they are experts in plant based nutrition and suggested them as a place to start. I'm quite certain that if you spoke to any of them, they would know who in their contacts that specialize in cases such as yours. I haven't suggested any treatment advice for you, and wouldn't. I have pointed you to those I know who can. If you were to call any of those contacts, and explain your situation, I'm sure they could tell you who you could work with. The protocols of the two organizations you criticized for their advertised programs are just some examples of how their program works; they are, of course, customized to the patient’s situation and needs. Again, if they cannot help you, I’m quite certain they know who can, if you were remotely interested in finding out, which is all I was suggesting.
6. Your story just clarified exactly what I meant by “that system” failed you, in more ways than I initially thought, but your story on that is not the first time I’ve heard such challenges, nor, I’m sure would it be the first time any of these doctors I’ve suggested have either and is why they are so adamantly opposed to it. I have friends who have died from bariatric surgery, so I have my own reasons and influences for my keen dislike for that “solution” option.
As I said before, I’m sorry you have suffered, and your personal hell (before and after bariatric surgery) isn’t one I’d wish on anyone. For you and others here to make the twisted assertions of my statements into some warped suggestion that you think that I think you should die based on what I said are just clearly further attempts to marginalize me as some sociopath. You aren’t hearing me at all, you are leaping to conclusions, erroneous conclusions, so you can stay on the path you are on and try to discredit the validity of my position.
Shooting the messenger and name calling doesn’t change the facts. There are better options and I’m here to make them known. People can find out for their selves and make their own determinations on how they are going to proceed. I’m not stopping anyone from doing anything, nor am I leading people to dangerous care. Your story proves how dangerous “standard” care can be, and ironically, you are still forced to supplement nutrients, so anyone, vegan or no, taking a B12 really isn’t any different.
As a vegan, I’ll take my risks all day before I’d spend the money, suffer the pain, and live the restrictions you have and will continue to suffer every day of your life on your path. My path has served me quite well for the 12 years I’ve been at it and I don’t live a life of poor health or deprivation, as much as people here may wish I did.
It’s late, I’m tired and I’ll talk about the nutritional statements later.
To address your rebuttals:
1. "Legacy business" - is that what they're calling being near the top of a pyramid scheme now? If she's making residuals to the tune of multi-millions annually, as you claim, then there are a lot of poor people further down the pyramid who are losing their shirts. Don't you think it's a conflict of interest for her to try to advise people (who are not all the same, and as such, all do not need the one size fits all "answer" of Juice Plus+ products? What if the person was already getting all of their nutrients through a plant-based diet alone. Would she still try to direct people to buy her products? I'm not in academia - those of you who are, what is the likelihood of completing multiple doctorate degrees in a three year time? What sort of demands on ones time would there be to do such in an accredited institution of higher learning?
2. Actually, that is NOT the case. There is no longer any mention of the Gummis on the NSA web site. Here is why (had to actually bring it up on the Internet Wayback Machine at http://web.archive.org/web/20060721171257/http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/personal-finance/producttestimonialtricks-of-the-trade-106/index.htm:
"The case. National Safety Associates (NSA) used testimonials from doctors, including William Sears (above), a prominent pediatrician and author, to promote Juice Plus Gummies, made with the juice powders of 17 fruits, vegetables, and grains. In response to a consumer complaint, the Better Business Bureau's National Advertising Division said in April 2005 that the ads misleadingly implied that the Gummies are low in sugar and are a nutritional alternative to fruits and vegetables. NSA promised to modify its ads and stop calling Gummies “the next best thing to fruits and vegetables.”The outcome. In November 2005 the NSA Web site was saying that Juice Plus is “the next best thing to fruits and vegetables,” but that statement did not refer specifically to the Gummies form of the product, and we're not aware of any challenges to it. NSA didn't return repeated calls. When we asked Sears about the implied low-sugar claim for Juice Plus Gummies, he said, “Sometimes these advertising people will get carried away.”
So. Nothing there about it being an occasional treat, but tons of evidence pointing to the false advertising that it was low sugar and suitable for diabetic kids. But you, who are pointing me in this woman's direction for advice, aren't even aware that they no longer produce a gummy product. You just pulled all of that reasoning out of your own ass rather than knowing what you're talking about before saying it? Big surprise.
3. And tell me how that glaring conflict of interest (that she requires all of her certified professionals to become her downline) doesn't reek of both the product and the credential she offers being total junk? If the product is so good (and it is not - we can get in to that further if you'd like) why wouldn't it sell itself, and if the credential is worth having, why must someone belong to her downline to be able to be granted access to updated information? I'm assuming she already charges them for the credential, and then takes a cut on their sales and downline too? It sounds to me as if Dr. Popper is laughing all the way to the bank...
4. If Dr. Popper has tons of expertise dealing with bariatric patients, whose testimonials line her walls, perhaps since I don't have access to her walls you could ask her for their names, so I can follow up with them personally? Surely if they're willing to provide a testimonial for the efficacy of her product they'd be willing for me to contact them to discuss their experiences. Unless, of course, these people don't exist. By the way - the use of the phrase "perhaps you could investigate who they *WERE*" did not go unnoticed. Were? Because they are no longer with us on this mortal coil? Or because they no longer swear by her products?
5. Sure, I'd be more than happy to contact them. The first one is easy enough, since she's local. The second? Not so accessible, but maybe if I buy something... The third and fourth? Do you have contact information for the individual "doctors"? Or do I need to sign up for their retreats to get a response? As I've said, I'm more than willing to direct my questions to your experts, but I don't expect to have to spend hours tracking down their contact information. My time is as valuable as theirs and I have better things to do with my time than jump through your hoops.
6. You completely missed the point. In both the post-op weight loss community AND the veg*n communities, you're marginalized if you experience something outside the percepted "norm". In both cases, the surgeries were life-saving for me. The first time my actual life. The second time my quality of life. Each one is important. Individual doctors may have failed me, but the surgery did not. But for chance, but for an unfortunate accident that compounded gradual nutritional issues, I wouldn't have gotten so sick. The same could be said about a vibrant member of the vegetarian community who is battling the same kind of issues I dealt with last year because of a twist of fate, a random accident. It is not his personal failing that got him there, just as it was not mine that got me where I was. I am not, and refuse to be told, that I'm a bad or less civilized person because I choose animal protein in order to stay healthy. He chooses plant-based protein, and a natural lifestyle. If, when he recovers, he chooses to continue on that path, or if he chose to eat differently - I wouldn't judge him for his actions either way, even though I might make a different choice for myself. That's all a part of the human experience. We all make tough choices every day. This one? For me, isn't that tough.
I know you like to think my life is hell, but really, it isn't. I eat from every food group. Love veggies as much as I love meat, fish and poultry. I derive pleasure from sharing meals with others, both because both the food tastes great and the company is enjoyable. My life is well-rounded. I'm happy. What more can we as humans ask for?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Snarf
Dystopia
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Corrin Radd said:
Wow did this discussion take a turn towards insanity. What a brilliant proof:1. Some people undergo radical elective surgery to intentionally compromise their digestive systems.
2. Some of those who have elected this surgery cannot thrive on a vegan diet.
3. Even with voluntarily compromised digestive systems, those who undergo the surgery are still technically human.
4. Therefore, a vegan diet is not the optimal diet for humans.That's truly amazing work. Thanks internet. I'll be sharing that for years to come as evidence of just how desperate and full of it you guys are.
There you go rus--you can add people who undergo radical elective surgery to intentionally compromise their digestive systems to your list of evidence which includes your anecdotes, some other random internet folks' anecdotes, some attention-seeking blogger's anecdotes, some vanity press publications, an ad for a doctor who offers anecdotes but no science, and a poorly researched, misleading article about raw foodists. I, for one, am convinced.
Give it up RSR. You can't beat that.
Where in that list of ridiculous stereotypes do you think you fall?
Posted 1 year ago # -
rus
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Snarf said:
Where in that list of ridiculous stereotypes do you think you fall?We guessing? I'll take "technically human".
The blurb about no science / anecdotes / etc. has to be referring to the gummy bear peddlers, right? I mean, seriously. Just eat gummy bears and drink juice, you'll live forever?
But Corrin, since you decided to show back up, gotta ask if you and RSR share something besides dietary predilections.
Red Sun Rising said:
There are many activists who face arrest and violence to make a different to those trapped in the system. Frankly, if I were one of the animals in a lab, or in a factory farm, I wouldn't want an "abolitionist" out here having an intellectual debate on my fate, I'd be pining for someone from the ALF to liberate me. I would be thankful for an opportunity to be removed from a veal crate, gestation crate for free range happiness if I were to die regardless (welfarism). Unlike those in the Francione camp,I will never condemn those who would risk their own freedom to give me mine (were I in that situation), it sucks to admit that I'm too much of a coward to do the same for animals in that situation today.If you see animals and people as equals, are you willing to commit violence on behalf of animals? RSR apparently sympathizes with those who do, but isn't willing to take such action herself.
Are you?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Bear
The woods
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Red Sun Rising said:
You read what you want Bear, but your deduction here is not accurate. I repeat:
I didn't suggest that any of these physicians were experts in bariatric follow-up; I specifically stated they are experts in plant based nutrition and suggested them as a place to start.This much is true. But I never wrote that you had urged Columbusfoodie to see experts in bariatric follow-up. That might actually have been remotely conscionable.
Red Sun Rising said:
I haven't suggested any treatment advice. Just provided some experts on plant based nutrition.Untrue:
get some advice from physician experts who would have never suggested bariatric surgery as a solution, and would have solved your problems with an immersion program centered on detoxing and plant based nutrition and some cognitive behavioral therapy.
You made two prescriptions right there, despite (as you point out) not being a doctor. The first is to avoid bariatric surgery in the first place; the second is to follow a path of veganism and cognitive therapy.
Do you know that these would work? No. Do you have an educated guess? No.
Are they the path that is consistent with your food ideology? Yes.
Are you nevertheless advising someone on a matter of life and death?
Yes.
Hence psychopathy (a.k.a. antisocial personality disorder). Persistent disregard for the rights of others, lack of empathy (for humans!), lack of remorse, narcissism. That's when it finally clicked. All in a nice, tidy bundle.
Note that this is not a professional diagnosis. Note that I would not urge you to seek the advice of a carnivorous doctor in order to remedy it. What you do about your problem is very much your problem. I'm just done putting up with its manifestations. People with antisocial personality disorder behave in a manner that is antithetical to, and destructive of, society—whether it's this online society or society more generally—and cannot be indulged.
Posted 1 year ago # -
local champion
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I still do not understand what is wrong with eating locally sourced, humanely killed animals. I agree that cruelty to animals is wrong (the debate is what constitutes cruelty) but cruelty to humans is even worse imo. In this latest round RSR and Corrin have been nothing but cruel to Columbusfoodie. I can't imagine either of them go around pontificating in real life the way they do here. Many people would not be as kind as Columbusfoodie has been.
Posted 1 year ago # -
rus
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Corrin Radd said:
I don't see animals and people as equals, never implied that I did, and the logical leap you are making (anyone who believes animals deserve some protections/consideration must believe that animals and humans are equal) is absurd.RSR does seem to believe than animals and humans are equal ( calling them friends, visualizing herself as an animal, equating animal eating to cannibalism, etc. ).
Yeah, there's a difference between that and some who advocate for "humane treatment". The latter accepts using animals as food, which I didn't think you did.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Corrin Radd
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local champion said:
I still do not understand what is wrong with eating locally sourced, humanely killed animals. I agree that cruelty to animals is wrong (the debate is what constitutes cruelty) but cruelty to humans is even worse imo. In this latest round RSR and Corrin have been nothing but cruel to Columbusfoodie. I can't imagine either of them go around pontificating in real life the way they do here. Many people would not be as kind as Columbusfoodie has been.If, in real life, someone I know who chose radical elective surgery to intentionally compromise his digestive system used his own voluntarily compromised digestive system as an example of why the vegan diet is not right for humans, I would absolutely call him out on it. That's not cruel; it's common sense.
Posted 1 year ago # -
rus
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local champion said:
I still do not understand what is wrong with eating locally sourced, humanely killed animals. I agree that cruelty to animals is wrong (the debate is what constitutes cruelty) but cruelty to humans is even worse imo. In this latest round RSR and Corrin have been nothing but cruel to Columbusfoodie. I can't imagine either of them go around pontificating in real life the way they do here. Many people would not be as kind as Columbusfoodie has been.Truth.
Posted 1 year ago # -
gramarye
In Exile
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Corrin Radd said:
If, in real life, someone I know who chose radical elective surgery to intentionally compromise his digestive system used his own voluntarily compromised digestive system as an example of why the vegan diet is not right for humans, I would absolutely call him out on it. That's not cruel; it's common sense.It may be less cruel phrased like that, but it's still not common sense.
First, in a world like RSR's, in which the entire meat industry (factory, sustainable, or otherwise) is shut down and animals accorded rights on a level with humans, what should such a patient do? Or, for that matter, the others who similarly cannot adequately digest plant-based proteins simply because of their genetics, or because of early childhood developmental issues wholly beyond their control?
Second, given the absolutism of RSR's premises--and yours, to the extent that you're joining in on her side for this purpose--that a vegan diet is appropriate for 100% of the population, then even exceptions such as those who have had surgery (radical or otherwise, elective or otherwise) disprove that rule. If you make a statement that allows for no exceptions, then a single exception disproves it.
If your only aim is to suggest that many more people could physically survive and meet all of their nutritional needs on a vegan diet than currently do, then true, columbusfoodie's situation proves nothing. "Many more" is not "all," so she could be in the other category. However, that would not be a basis for any argument for completely eliminating the production of meat, dairy, or other animal-based foods.
And if the industry is to remain in existence for the benefit of those people who would enjoy it based on their biological misfortune, there is little reason to deny the savory pleasures of meat, eggs, cheese, ice cream, milk, and all the other delights of agriculture to the rest of us, either.
Animals are natural resources, not fellow humans, and they exist for our use and enjoyment, whether that be companionship, sustenance, apparel, entertainment, sport, or industry. Like all natural resources, we have an obligation to use them well and be cognizant of the environmental effects of widespread industrial exploitation of those resources--but that applies equally to plant crop farming (and to coal mining, oil drilling, logging, and any other use of Earth's bounty that one might name). To the extent that animals are entitled to rights, it is based not on their status as sentient creatures but on the democratic judgment of our fellow citizens--i.e., other actual humans--that we should not treat animals in a given fashion. Our treatment of animals is fundamentally about our standards for each other, not the animals themselves.
Posted 1 year ago # -
jbcmh81
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Red Sun Rising said:
You read what you want Bear, but your deduction here is not accurate. I repeat:
I didn't suggest that any of these physicians were experts in bariatric follow-up; I specifically stated they are experts in plant based nutrition and suggested them as a place to start. I'm quite certain that she spoke to any of them, they would know who in their contacts that specialize in cases such as hers. I haven't suggested any treatment advice. Just provided some experts on plant based nutrition.It's really quite fascinating that in almost 30 pages, you have been able to pass the blame for everything onto everyone but yourself. Are you ever going to take responsibility for the fact that your views, and your views alone, turn people off and make people believe (with plenty of evidence) that there's just something fundamentally wrong with you? Then again, maybe that's a silly question. If you were capable of being self-aware at any level, you probably wouldn't be this way to begin with. Maybe it's all out of fear. I mean, if I were you, I'd be afraid to look inside too.
Posted 1 year ago #
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