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YouTube0Angle said:
Snarf's location FTW.
classic
Columbus Underground Messageboard » General Columbus Discussion » Transit
NYC Cracking Down on Cyclists in 2012 with Law Enforcement
[58 posts] [22 contributors]
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vestanpance
Harrison West/at work OSU
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Posted 4 months ago # -
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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0Angle said:
Snarf's location FTW.
A cop stopped me when I did a "rolling stop" on campus years ago. Just a warning. I didn't argue, and I see cars do worse at the same intersection. Education and enforcement aren't mutually exclusive. In LOTW's defense, if cops cited all the fixies on High St. every evening, they WOULD be pretty occupied...If it was a stop sign that's another interesting tangent the discussion around enforcement could go. Some states do allow cyclists to treat stops as yields. Historically, traffic laws and vehicle registration/driver's licensing only started coming about with the rise of auto ownership. Legally, there are some laws that are applied differently based on the type of vehicle in question.
Education and enforcement? Certainly. I would love to see the city get a grant or a sponsor to stock a couple sets of bike lights in the cruisers to pass out at night. Or a simple pamphlet that could offer some tips/laws.
Posted 4 months ago # -
turbo ninja
Crumb Bus, Oh.
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DavidF said:
and just to make sure there isn't yet another rant about how unfair this attitude is, I've actually punched a dent into the hood of a car that tried to push me out of a crosswalk before. (Then I realized I was standing in front of large piece of steel on wheels that could crush me like an ant and boogied the hell out of there)I'd like to see some version of the Castle Doctrine for pedestrians in a marked crosswalk.
If your car gets close enough to me that I can reach out and scratch it with my keys, you're out of luck because what were you doing that close to me? It can't be my fault because I'm just a person with the right-of-way and how could I have done that to your car unless you were someplace you shouldn't have been?
Same with cyclists - if you get clotheslined by a pedestrian because you were someplace you weren't supposed to be, then I hope you were wearing a helmet and remember to yield next time.
Posted 4 months ago # -
alexs
Limestone bluffs of the Scioto
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There is no way I'd ride a bike with no brakes in traffic.
Well, maybe if I had a Super Helmet Seven.
Get the Video Plugins Posted 4 months ago # -
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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lifeontwowheels said:
I would agree to an extent but education should not be replaced by enforcement alone. Sure the rules are on the books but is there a specific reason or reasons why these are being broken to any measurable degree? [not rationalizing or justifying]I never said that education should be replaced by enforcement. I imagine that these rules are being broken because of a lack of both education and enforcement.
lifeontwowheels said:
The other issue is how are you educating the other half? If we use enforcement as a teaching tool for cyclists should it be applied in equal measure if CPD observes a motorist passing a cyclist unsafely?Yes.
lifeontwowheels said:
If we're being truly being honest with ourselves, I think most would admit that while a speeding ticket changes behavior in the short term (when I was a bit younger and a wee bit more reckless I can remember the odd speeding ticket really changing my behavior 6-8 months before falling back to old practice) it does little to encourage long term changes. That's what my "tirade" touched on.I imagine the behavior adjustment differs for everyone. If all automobile traffic laws went unenforced, I imagine behavior patterns would change pretty dramatically toward something more chaotic. I think that the current state of biking is somewhat chaotic, despite the positive changes that law abiding cyclists and other good advocates have made.
Posted 4 months ago # -
M.O.
Columbus
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lifeontwowheels said:
Go back to MO's post and tell me where I am wrong.OK. I are a cyclist. I put in 5k last year -- not a bunch, but committed. After 30+ years of serious cycling I've encountered clueless, rude motorists, but fewer and fewer as the years go by. I never trust that anybody is going to yield right of way, but I'm often surprised -- to the point I wave in gratitude when it's clear someone actually waited before pulling out from a side street. As Lance & co. have popularized the sport I see *more* clueless, rude cyclists on the road dressing up like sponsored Fruit Strip Gum and playing we-don't-stop-for-nobody, often in packs just like those TDF guys, but without the closed roadways.
It would be just swell if CPD clamped down on those folks. Seeing as a cyclist can't be pulled over for following the law, I don't see how we're holding anybody to a higher standard.
Anything based on fear or anger does not make good policy. Period. If you want things to change you have to move beyond anecdotal "I saw this, so we must do x"; you have to move beyond anger/frustration if you have a bad experience or a near miss. Assholes are assholes, regardless of the mode of transportation. The same guy on his bike nearly running down a person will be the motorist cutting off a pedestrian at the next cold snap.
You're making this too hard. You appear to hold yourself out as a representative of my sport, yet you're wringing your hands about the *motivations* behind enforcing existing traffic laws for bicycles?
I don't think that's a tenable advocacy stance, and frankly it sounds like the tone-deaf, self-interested, off-the-deep-end rambling that self-appointed leaders of "cause" groups somehow adopt after listening to themselves "advocate" too long.
We're not beholding the dawn of a new transportation form here. Ohio law has treated bikes the same as cars for ages, and cyclists should expect to be held to the law every time they cycle, just as car drivers should expect to be held to the law every time they drive. Both cyclists and drivers get away with infractions that aren't evenly enforced every day depending on any number of factors, but neither should be too bent out of shape when a ticket book comes out, let alone up-in-arms over what the "motivation" for the ticket might be.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Coremodels
Really close to Explorer's Club.
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LOTW...first of all, no one in this thread that I can see would object to asshole drivers being cracked down on. In fact, many asshole drivers are cracked down on already. I'm going to say something though, and will probably regret it, but here it is anyway...
I would estimate, in my personal experience, that about half the cyclists I see are not following the law. Half. That's riding the wrong way on a one way, blowing through stops, whatever. I'm also not exaggerating that number.
This ranges from the hood kids riding around near my house to the geared out downtown commuters.
Half is a problem. 1/4 is a problem. Its a problem.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Twixlen
Westgate, Columbus
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Coremodels said:
LOTW...first of all, no one in this thread that I can see would object to asshole drivers being cracked down on. In fact, many asshole drivers are cracked down on already. I'm going to say something though, and will probably regret it, but here it is anyway...I would estimate, in my personal experience, that about half the cyclists I see are not following the law. Half. That's riding the wrong way on a one way, blowing through stops, whatever. I'm also not exaggerating that number.
This ranges from the hood kids riding around near my house to the geared out downtown commuters.
Half is a problem. 1/4 is a problem. Its a problem.
Similar experience here - and living near where LOTW lives, I'm surprised that he doesn't experience the same. I've taken to counting the number of pedestrians & cyclists I encounter on the way too & from work - keeping a mental tally of the total, and mental tally of number heading wrong way in traffic. Just using that metric, not using any other laws that could be broken, and I'm over 50% pedestrians & cyclists going the wrong way.
And the thing is - I don't see the cyclist & pedestrian safety as separate issues. I saw a nice lady this morning in a 'burban gunning her engine and blasting behind pedestrians that were *just* clear inside the crosswalk - pedestrians that were in a "WALK" zone. It's all the same kind of safety & awareness - it's a deeper-than-red-means-stop understanding of traffic rules, and general road use. And it's epically missing from the general population - on all sides of this issue.
Is it more anecdotal stuff? Yup - but I'm talking about me, paying attention every day, 5 days a week (sometimes more), taking the same paths, at about the same times. The people that I see going the correct way in traffic? Specifically cyclists? I encounter those same (2) people all the time, and it's obvious they know what they're doing. Even when people in vehicles behave like assholes toward them on McKinley (saw the lady on her bike get clipped on day AND the driver flipped her off - unbelievable).
Posted 4 months ago # -
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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^ I've certainly experienced it. And Core, I absolutely agree on this being a problem. I just see there being a different way of approaching it because it goes a lot deeper than someone simply choosing to follow or not follow a law.
Like I said, we've standardized our practices behind the wheel and there is a general accepted way of driving. Some of it codified in law and some it accepted through culture. We don't have that with cycling. Kids are taught wrong and carry those practices into adult hood. New immigrants whose only choice may be to bike may not speak or understand English well enough to understand the nuances of American legalese. So yeah, it's an issue. But what solves it?
Posted 4 months ago # -
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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M.O. said:
You're making this too hard. You appear to hold yourself out as a representative of my sport, yet you're wringing your hands about the *motivations* behind enforcing existing traffic laws for bicycles?I don't think that's a tenable advocacy stance, and frankly it sounds like the tone-deaf, self-interested, off-the-deep-end rambling that self-appointed leaders of "cause" groups somehow adopt after listening to themselves "advocate" too long.
We're not beholding the dawn of a new transportation form here. Ohio law has treated bikes the same as cars for ages, and cyclists should expect to be held to the law every time they cycle, just as car drivers should expect to be held to the law every time they drive. Both cyclists and drivers get away with infractions that aren't evenly enforced every day depending on any number of factors, but neither should be too bent out of shape when a ticket book comes out, let alone up-in-arms over what the "motivation" for the ticket might be.
So advocating for better education, changes in design to make the roads safer for all road users and creating more access to cycling information for minority groups is off the deep end? Awesome.
Posted 4 months ago # -
M.O.
Columbus
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lifeontwowheels said:
So advocating for better education, changes in design to make the roads safer for all road users and creating more access to cycling information for minority groups is off the deep end? Awesome.Nope. Unfathomably taking the discussion down detours about motivation and anecdotes, then even more unfathomably trying to turn criticism of that meandering thought process into being against "better education, changes in design to make the roads safer for all road users and creating more access to cycling information for minority groups" is off the deep end. If you rode the Olentangy Greenway like you're conducting this argument I'm pretty sure you'd be in the river a few times, and maybe lost somewhere in New Jersey at some point.
Posted 4 months ago # -
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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lifeontwowheels said:
Sounds pretty much like what I stated in my first post.No, you questioned whether or not enforcement has any effect, went on to explain why education is vastly more important than enforcement, and then said you'd be pissed off if you saw enforcement actually happening.
We need a balance of all three.
Posted 4 months ago # -
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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Walker said:
No, you questioned whether or not enforcement has any effect, went on to explain why education is vastly more important than enforcement, and then said you'd be pissed off if you saw enforcement actually happening.We need a balance of all three.
You're not even going to bother paging over to quote me in context? I'm perfectly fine with enforcement in general. My comment was this:
I'll be pretty blunt on this point: I will be pretty damn pissed if Columbus finds the money to sit a cop on a corner and hand out tickets for cyclists while my neighborhood continues to see vandalism, theft, arson, prostitution, drugs and murder. Let's get the fucking priorities straight.
which is another thing all together. NYC has been doing this exact thing: special duty checkpoints to specifically target cyclists committing infractions. So I have no problem with CPD, in the course of day to day duty, addressing any and all legal issues they find, including cycling. But yes, I am going to be very upset if we can somehow find the money to sit a cop on the corner for that sole purpose.
Posted 4 months ago # -
misskitty
Columbus
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I think education for motorist and cyclist is key. More enforcement could be wasting valuable time. Besides if a cyclist does make poor choices it's a lot more likely that they will be the one's getting injured. I saw a guy about a month ago run the light at long and High made a really wide turn and got creamed by a car. Do you think he will do that again?
also, I just got a ticket for that headlight law. My darn light went out about ten minuets prior to the officer pulling me over. I was going to pay the fine just so it would be dealt with until I found out that the fine itself is 35 bucks that's no issue. However if I pay the fine without going to court it automatically makes me assume guilt and the ticket becomes 126 bucks. I think that is B.S. that is rather excessive and now im going to waste the courts time and money.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Coremodels
Really close to Explorer's Club.
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