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No to Casinos - The UMC Position

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Started 2 years ago by kitoba
Latest reply from Rockmastermike

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joev
Merion Village
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Core_Models wrote >>

joev wrote >>

Core_Models wrote >>

kitoba wrote >>

Aunt Madge wrote >>
I agree totally!! It seems like a rather narrow view being thrust upon everyone else and for what? Increasing the profits of the West Virginia and Indiana Casino's? Have they been putting money into the collection plate for this UMC endorsement ???

Okay Auntie M, let's forget the stats and think about it. Someone makes a lot of money on the casinos --that would be the owners, otherwise why would they be so gung ho about building these places? And casinos produce nothing, so all the money going into them has to come from someplace. How else could it possibly work other than to drain money from surrounding businesses?

You mean like Starbuck's?

At least Starbucks give its customers a caffeine buzz that makes them more productive members of society. Casinos make all those who didn't win feel useless.

LOL! Wow, so I guess you're a big supporter of Big Tobacco too?

There's that old Coremodels I've missed! Most studies show that coffee contributes to a healthy lifestyle. Most studies from the past 30 years show that tobacco does the opposite.

Posted 2 years ago #
Core_Models
Columbus
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Most of those "coffee is healthy" studies, like it fights Parkinson's, have gone to the wayside fairly quickly. Regardless, pick anything you like as a business and plug it into the scenario that kitoba presents.

1. The owners make a lot of money.
2. They don't actually produce anything.
3. They may drain money from surrounding businesses.

Again, you've pretty much described the business plan of 90% of the businesses on the planet that don't carry a production arm...make money, take a share of the market, etc.

Posted 2 years ago #
HeySquare
German Village
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Core_Models wrote >>
Honestly, my biggest problem was the status, studies and figures. They present correlations without actually establishing any, and make HUGE leaps between one stat and the next.

Yea I have to agree. There are no citations for the figures quoted, and they can't possibly be current. Atlantic City got casinos by state referendum in 1976.
"In Atlantic City, 25% of small businesses closed 3 years after casinos opened. Prior to casinos, the unemployment rate in Atlantic City was 30% higher than the rest of the state. 10 years later, it is 50% higher than the rest of the state."
So even if all those statements were correct, those would be figures from 1986. And you can't use Atlantic City as a representative example for unemployment purposes... or really for anything. Towns on the Jersey shore have distinctive population fluctuation, so using any before-after comparisons need to compensate for that. Shore towns might average 5-7,000 residents in the winter, with a population of something like 30,000 people during the summer (I'm pulling those figures out of my head, so those numbers may be off, milage may vary).

My point is... the seasonal population of such areas can skew any figure. Atlantic City was a struggling, old resort town with a concentration of aging Victorian hotels. In the early-1970s, these Victorian hotels were considered an eyesore, and institution of casino gambling at the Jersey Shore was an economic driver for the entire state for 20 years. Atlantic City was pretty rough before the casinos came, and casino gambling did nothing to change that status. But Atlantic City wasn't much different than several other shore towns. We wouldn't have had Bruce Springsteen singing about his gritty youth if Asbury Park hadn't been pretty craptastic.

Different towns had different approaches. Wildwood had (at that time) fairly new 1950s and 1960s hotels that appealed to families, so Wildwood remained a popular summertime destination during that period. Cape May began a process of restoration of the Victorian seaside resort architecture, and is today one of the premier destinations for Victorian architecture in the country. Atlantic City had the casinos.

Posted 2 years ago #
Tenzo
Chicago Lakeshore
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Sounds like most financial companies.

What does Chase produce?

Posted 2 years ago #
Core_Models
Columbus
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Tenzo wrote >>
Sounds like most financial companies.
What does Chase produce?

bad loans?

Posted 2 years ago #
DavidF
Elysium Fields
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jmak wrote >>

DavidF wrote >>
@jmak: Dude, is there any thread you're not posted on?

I could ask you the same question DavidF ... if that is your real name!!!

I'm not on the bourbon thread.

Posted 2 years ago #
greenhouse1014
Columbus
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This stand on the issue isn't really surprising and the statement above is really more toward the concept of gambling rather than a specific venue for it. With its eye towards the social behavior of its followers, it makes sense that just about any denomination would come out against gambling as a societal ill. I mean, gambling isn't one of those things that you say, "yes, you should gamble". More its just one more vice that we have. Most denominations will try to look out for the overall well being of its members and gambling just isn't one of those things you promote when you have concerns about your membership's life. I'm sure if the issue was up for debate, the "church" would come out against legal alcohol. Good for us, its not up for debate.

Posted 2 years ago #
joev
Merion Village
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Core_Models wrote >>

Tenzo wrote >>
Sounds like most financial companies.
What does Chase produce?

bad loans?

Debit cards that get closed for no reason with no notification, and take 5-7 business days to replace. Yay Chase - attaining a new level of suck!

Posted 2 years ago #
Core_Models
Columbus
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I suppose I'd feel better about this Methodist stance if I hadn't grown up Methodist and actually attended Monte Carlo Night to fund raise for a missionary thing at the church.

Posted 2 years ago #
Tenzo
Chicago Lakeshore
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So you are saying, they don't want the competition?

Posted 2 years ago #
Core_Models
Columbus
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No, I think the Catholic Church may be opposed to it on more of that basis, but I think the Methodists just enjoy a certain sense of righteousness while deep in hypocrisy.

Posted 2 years ago #
greenhouse1014
Columbus
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Core_Models wrote >>
No, I think the Catholic Church may be opposed to it on more of that basis, but I think the Methodists just enjoy a certain sense of righteousness while deep in hypocrisy.

Isn't that kind of the MO for all denominations-self-righteous hypocrisy?

Posted 2 years ago #
Rockmastermike
CORNspiracy HQ
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Casinos only move money from some people who are bad at math and put it somewhere else. Period.

In this case most would go to Penn Corp, some to taxes (33%), and a pittance to the very few folks who work in the places. It doesn't take that many people to run a few tables and tend a bar. Remember there isn't even a hotel operation attached to the proposed C-bus casino. So 10% to payroll is probably a huge overestimate.

Therefore, it appears from reading the proposed amendment, and estimating that some 10% will go to meet payroll and 33% to taxes, that greater than 50% of the money going in will just simply evaporate from the local economy and go elsewhere. (after construction costs)

From basic math one can calculate that unless greater than about 50% of the money going into the casino is from tourists, the local economy will suffer a net loss as local wealth exits the Columbus economy.

If (big IF) greater than about 50% of the money going into the casino is from tourists then it appears that about 10% of THE DIFFERENCE in local vs non local money will "stick" to the local economy. A small "win" for Columbus.

BUT... Does ANYONE think that columbus will be a destination for gamblers to drop off their cash in the same way that Altantic City is? The notion that greater than even a few percent of the money going into a C-bus casino would be from tourists is simply laughable with the cheesy little non-resort casino being proposed. Maybe some few who come in for a Jackets game will decide to drop off a few bucks in the place, but those same people may have otherwise used that money to buy a hotdog or a drink in a local bar or something, which would have a greater benefit to the local economy.

This appears that even in the BEST CASE scenario to be a numeric loss of wealth to the local economy except in the off chance that C-bus becomes a tourist meca like Atlantic City.

I cannot get the numbers to work out any other way and it is depressing, as it is a lose-lose proposition. The state government makes money, yes, but it appears to be really just a tax which will be paid mostly by local people. I am assuming one-time construction costs are very small compared to profits over long operating time scales. Contractors will make a few bucks at first.

Posted 2 years ago #
Core_Models
Columbus
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"Therefore, it appears from reading the proposed amendment, and estimating that some 10% will go to meet payroll and 33% to taxes, that greater than 50% of the money going in will just simply evaporate from the local economy and go elsewhere. (after construction costs)"

Is this really any different than ANY business who is HQ'd outside of Columbus and operates here?

Posted 2 years ago #
Rockmastermike
CORNspiracy HQ
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Core_Models wrote >>
Is this really any different than ANY business who is HQ'd outside of Columbus and operates here?

is there any other business that runs that kind of profit margin verses operational/payroll expense?

Posted 2 years ago #
joev
Merion Village
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Core_Models wrote >>
"Therefore, it appears from reading the proposed amendment, and estimating that some 10% will go to meet payroll and 33% to taxes, that greater than 50% of the money going in will just simply evaporate from the local economy and go elsewhere. (after construction costs)"
Is this really any different than ANY business who is HQ'd outside of Columbus and operates here?

Regardless of the moral arguments spelled out in the Methodist manifesto or the financial arguments spelled out by RMM, do you think a constitutionally mandated casino in the Arena District would be good for Columbus? There are a thousand reasons to vote against this - I don't care what anyone's personal reasons are, as long as they vote no.

Posted 2 years ago #
somertimeoh
Harrison West
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Some poll I saw on the news had this like 57 for, 35 against and 8 undecided. This concerns me greatly.

Posted 2 years ago #
Rockmastermike
CORNspiracy HQ
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joev wrote >>

Core_Models wrote >>
"Therefore, it appears from reading the proposed amendment, and estimating that some 10% will go to meet payroll and 33% to taxes, that greater than 50% of the money going in will just simply evaporate from the local economy and go elsewhere. (after construction costs)"
Is this really any different than ANY business who is HQ'd outside of Columbus and operates here?

Regardless of the moral arguments spelled out in the Methodist manifesto or the financial arguments spelled out by RMM, do you think a constitutionally mandated casino in the Arena District would be good for Columbus? There are a thousand reasons to vote against this

Indeed. there are many reasons to vote against, and only one reason to vote for. That reason being that it would benefit the people of ohio. I cannot get the numbers to work out in any way that benefits ohio except through assumptions on tourism that cannot possibly play out.

Posted 2 years ago #
joev
Merion Village
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Rockmastermike wrote >>

joev wrote >>

Core_Models wrote >>
"Therefore, it appears from reading the proposed amendment, and estimating that some 10% will go to meet payroll and 33% to taxes, that greater than 50% of the money going in will just simply evaporate from the local economy and go elsewhere. (after construction costs)"
Is this really any different than ANY business who is HQ'd outside of Columbus and operates here?

Regardless of the moral arguments spelled out in the Methodist manifesto or the financial arguments spelled out by RMM, do you think a constitutionally mandated casino in the Arena District would be good for Columbus? There are a thousand reasons to vote against this

Indeed. there are many reasons to vote against, and only one reason to vote for. That reason being that it would benefit the people of ohio. I cannot get the numbers to work out in any way that benefits ohio except through assumptions on tourism that cannot possibly play out.

Especially not with casinos already built right at our borders in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Michigan and Indiana.

Posted 2 years ago #
Core_Models
Columbus
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Rockmastermike wrote >>

Core_Models wrote >>
Is this really any different than ANY business who is HQ'd outside of Columbus and operates here?

is there any other business that runs that kind of profit margin verses operational/payroll expense?

I have to think...yes.

You seem to be arguing two points against each other though, and ignoring payouts all together. The fact is, as margins go, casinos don't operate any higher than any other business I can think of in Ohio already. Margins on casinos and casino companies range from 12-18% on average from the books I've seen. 10% certainly may be a low payroll expense...33% is NOT a low STATE tax rate though for a business...and again, you're skipping payouts as an expense all together.

And those payouts are important in the math as well. The Payout rates of most casinos aren't nearly what the average person would think, they're more like paying out NINETY PLUS PERCENT of their bets as winnings....lemme say that again...NINETY PLUS PERCENT.

Posted 2 years ago #