Newer engine oils are killing the engines on our older cars.

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Newer engine oils are killing the engines on our older cars.

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Started 1 year ago by hugh59
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hugh59
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I just learned something interesting today talking with an auto mechanic. He told me that in the last few years, the makers of engine lubricant have reduced the amount of an additive known as ZDDP (which consists of zinc and phosphorus) in engine oil for gasoline engines. This change was mandated by government regulations in order to prolong the life of catalytic converters.

Unfortunately, this additive is necessary in order to keep many engines, especially older engines, running properly. The lack of certain levels of ZDDP in engine oil will cause excessive wear to engine cams.

I am not a mechanic so I can only go so far in describing this problem. But it seems that the government has mandated a change in engine oil in order to keep car owners from suffering a $300 to $1,000 repair in the first 100,000 miles of car ownership. Unfortunately, saving us from this repair puts us at risk for much costlier engine repairs.

I was wondering why my car was starting to burn a lot more oil. Maybe this is the reason. I did some research and I found that most oils today do not have the minimum required amount of ZDDP recommended for my car's engine. Thank you federal government.

Posted 1 year ago #
cc

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Those farkers also took the lead out of gasoline AND house paint. Now my paint chips taste like shit.

Posted 1 year ago #
GW_Justice
Grandview Hts.
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Interesting. There is a lot of conflicting info about ZDDP and who needs to have it in their oil. Some people say that no car built after 1988 will need this additive, because manufacturers have known that this change was on the way.

I know my motorcycle has the pushrod cams that are supposed to be killed by the removal of ZDDP. But the motorcycle forums say that standard oil is fine, only racing engines need this added. I guess it can't hurt to add some, you can buy the additive at any auto parts store.

Posted 1 year ago #
cbus11

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Be careful with those ZDDP additives. Engine oils are highly formulated, by people with degrees in such things, and plopping a teaspoon of something extra should not be taken lightly. This is a highly debated topic and a lot of people will tell you that the more mileage your older pre '88 (or high performance) car has (ie broken in) the less, if any, ZDDP you will need.

I believe the main problem with it is that it can coat catalytic converters and O2 sensors with renders them ineffective. This lets the nasty stuff into the atmosphere. It is not so much the cost of the repair as the likelyhood they might not be repaired.

(fed laws require emissions systems be covered by 8year/80k warranty which will soon be bumped to 10/100k)

Posted 1 year ago #
CooperGuy

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You didn't mention any info about the car, but increased oil consumption could be due to a number of potential issues such as:

- Bad or "stuck" PCV valve.
- Worn piston rings.
- Bad head gasket (leaks into coolant)
- Cracked block.
- Bad valve cover/oil pan gasket(s) (leaks onto ground)
- If you have an oil cooler, it may leak.
- Valve seals

Those are a few possibilities, there are more. Some are easy, cheap fixes while others could be expensive. Look for indications such as a smoking exhaust, brown or foamy looking coolant, and of course the telling oil drops or stains on the pavement.

Just curious, is your vehicle using more than a quart between oil changes?

Posted 1 year ago #
hugh59
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You appear to be right, GW_Justice. ZDDP additives are not a good idea, from what I have read. The best thing to do is buy motor oils that still have it. From what I have read, some of the motor for diesel engines is exactly the same as the motor oil that used to be sold for gasoline engines; many drivers are using it.

As for my engine, the oil consumption is bad (for this car) but not out of the normal range: about a quart every 1,000 to 2,000 miles. But this change occurred rather rapidly; prior to 2007 I would only burn a quart every 4,000 to 6,000 miles. There are no oil stains on the garage (YAY!!!) floor and the car is regularly serviced (which does not make it impossible for it to still have some of the problems you listed Cooperguy) and my mechanic could not find signs of any leaks. My mechanic put high mileage oil in my car....but it does not have ZDDP so it will only deal with part of my car's problem.

I am going to consult with my mechanic about what motor oil to use from now on as well as possible additives (keeping in mind the GW_Justice's wise comment). I am only a smart consumer of information that other's have presented. All I can do is find the best advice possible and act on it.

O2 sensors and catalytic converters are not necessarily cheap, but having your engine rebuilt is an absolute nightmare. I recognize that the CCs lose effectiveness over time...that will happen regardless of fuel or oil additives. Having a $500 repair every 75,000 miles is a helluva lot better than having a $3,500 repair at 150,000 miles.

Posted 1 year ago #
hugh59
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cc wrote >>
Those farkers also took the lead out of gasoline AND house paint. Now my paint chips taste like shit.

All kidding aside, I worked on the lead paint litigation. That case was mostly nonsense. Getting lead out of fuel was a good thing. Getting lead out of paint was also good if you are talking about interior paint. Exterior paint is a different matter. Heysquare can talk about this with more knowledge.

Posted 1 year ago #
groundrules

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if you're burning a quart every 1k-2k miles, you need to look elsewhere for a cause besides oil additives.

Posted 1 year ago #
Snarf
Dystopia
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^um yeah, your car has a serious problem man.

Posted 1 year ago #
Roland
Clintonville
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Which car is this? If your car uses 5qts of oil or 10qts, that would put burning 1 qt per 1k miles into perspective.

//TODO: Replace my freakin gaskets

Posted 1 year ago #
Rockmastermike
CORNspiracy HQ
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groundrules wrote >>
if you're burning a quart every 1k-2k miles, you need to look elsewhere for a cause besides oil additives.

yes. And if a gasket were to go bad it often causes a rapid change like you describe. Gaskets are not forever and anyone who says so is likely trying to sell something.

My car isn't that old, it's a 98, but I have gotten excellent results with synthetic oil. 158k and it still purrs like it was new.

Posted 1 year ago #
hugh59
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Well, I can keep questioning my mechanic. Also, I will start keeping a more detailed log of the oil consumption.

However, my car has a 6 quart reservoir. I expect to burn some oil. I had an old Toyota that need a quart every 1,200 miles and that was the high range of normal for that car. I assume that my mechanic would be able to spot a blown gasket. The car has been performing normally. No oil leaks. Runs smoothly. Gas mileage is normal.

Posted 1 year ago #
hugh59
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according to the Audi forums, oil consumption can be as little as under a quart for 6,000 between oil changes to a quart every 1,000 miles. In the past, I could go between oil changes (6,000 miles) without needing to top it off. Now I have to keep my eye on it.

Of course, I did not check my fluid levels after getting the car back from getting the oil changed last time. I didn't check it for several weeks. When ibid, I found that the oil level was at the bottom of the acceptable range on the dip stick. It too a quart to fill it to where the dip stick showed it was full. It is possible that the shop did not fill the oil all the way up.

Posted 1 year ago #
JoeMitchell

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royal purple xpr

either redline or amsoil has a euro line as well

if you're a tree cutter that is

Posted 1 year ago #
manticore33
Delaware, OH
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I run Valvoline 20-50 VR1 in my 1986 Porsche. It has a high level of ZDDP. Too much ZDDP will kill your cat; however, since there are no vehicle inspections in Central Ohio, you could gut it or cut it. Another oil that is suppose to be good for the ol' 1980's or older German cars is Brad Penn.

In my newer vehicles, I run Valvoline Synpower in my A4 (1998) and German (Euro Formula) Castrol Syntec in the BMW (2001) and could really care less about the ZDDP content.

Posted 1 year ago #
hugh59
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I might switch to Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-40 (which has 1000 PPM ZDDP). An alternative is Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck which has 1200 PPM ZDDP).

Posted 1 year ago #
CooperGuy

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hugh59 wrote >>
I might switch to Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-40 (which has 1000 PPM ZDDP). An alternative is Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck which has 1200 PPM ZDDP).

Now you're talkin'..... good choice! We use that same oil exclusively in every motorized vehicle we have - and we have a lot of them. Seven vehicles total that include an incredibly sweet 1996 Audi A4 Quattro with 228,000 miles to multiple 3/4 and one ton trucks that are all approaching the 200K mark and pull heavy trailers nearly every day. The lowest mileage vehicle we have is a '94 Jeep Wrangler we bought new, with 130K on it. We have a small landscaping service and the same oil is used in all of the 4-cycle equipment, from little edgers to really big lawn mowers. We buy it by the gallon.

Hopefully, it was nothing more than an oversight by a hurried mechanic in not filling the crankcase properly - that happens sometimes. I would keep a close eye on it though as something like a blown head gasket could be a fatal condition for an engine if not repaired quickly.

Posted 1 year ago #
hugh59
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CooperGuy wrote >>

hugh59 wrote >>
I might switch to Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-40 (which has 1000 PPM ZDDP). An alternative is Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck which has 1200 PPM ZDDP).

Now you're talkin'..... good choice! We use that same oil exclusively in every motorized vehicle we have - and we have a lot of them. Seven vehicles total that include an incredibly sweet 1996 Audi A4 Quattro with 228,000 miles to multiple 3/4 and one ton trucks that are all approaching the 200K mark and pull heavy trailers nearly every day. The lowest mileage vehicle we have is a '94 Jeep Wrangler we bought new, with 130K on it. We have a small landscaping service and the same oil is used in all of the 4-cycle equipment, from little edgers to really big lawn mowers. We buy it by the gallon.
Hopefully, it was nothing more than an oversight by a hurried mechanic in not filling the crankcase properly - that happens sometimes. I would keep a close eye on it though as something like a blown head gasket could be a fatal condition for an engine if not repaired quickly.

Thanks for the info. I assume you were describing the Mobil 1 turbo diesel truck oil. Where can I buy it? What type filter are you using for your Audi? A4s of that vintage are incredibly sweet; I want to make mine last as long as possible.

I will probably see about using that same oil in my wife's 2000 Subaru.

Posted 1 year ago #
hugh59
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Posted 1 year ago #
SusanB
Hungarian Village, Columbus' fastest growing Gayborhood!
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hugh59, it sounds like you need a new mechanic. My hubby works for Specialty Sports Cars downtown. Honest, reasonable, and very very knowledgeable (especially German and British cars).

Posted 1 year ago #