Mileage Tax Suggested to Replace Gasoline Tax « Columbus Underground Messageboard

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Mileage Tax Suggested to Replace Gasoline Tax

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Started 1 year ago by Walker
Latest reply from Cole

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cr0m
"Lower" Hilliard
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GeorgeFox wrote >>
So, let me get this straight: many of the people who drive long distances do so out of necesity not choice. A large number of people on here, I would imagine, live in the central core of Columbus and have access to COTA and bike paths.
A guy who lives in Mt. Sterling and finds a job in Dublin doesn't have that luxury. And even if rail existed, it wouldn;t be door to door.
I really think the rural poor will get hosed badly and I'm not sure the urban community gets that.

Agreed, I'm from Marion Ohio (live in Columbus now) and there are a ton of people there that drive to C-bus every day for work. I don't think the penalties need to exceed annual fuel costs associated with commuting. There could be parts of this proposition that we don't know, but my assumptions tell me this isn't a good thing for rural communities.

Posted 1 year ago #
hugh59
Aboard the ultimate power in Olde Towne East
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I am lucky. I ride my bike or walk to work. But then, I am one of those evil, keep taxes (and government spending) low conservatives.

Posted 1 year ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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hugh59 wrote >>
I am one of those evil, keep taxes (and government spending) low conservatives.

Sorta like this guy?

Voinovich: Fuel Tax Hike Would Create Jobs
By Associated Press
Published: August 06, 2010

An Ohio U.S. senator known for bucking the Republican party line is recommending an increase in the federal fuel tax as a way to help balance the federal budget and put Americans back to work.

READ MORE: http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2010/aug/06/voinovich-fuel-tax-hike-would-create-jobs-ar-181644/

Posted 1 year ago #
rus

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Walker wrote >>

hugh59 wrote >>
I am one of those evil, keep taxes (and government spending) low conservatives.

Sorta like this guy?
Voinovich: Fuel Tax Hike Would Create Jobs
By Associated Press
Published: August 06, 2010
An Ohio U.S. senator known for bucking the Republican party line is recommending an increase in the federal fuel tax as a way to help balance the federal budget and put Americans back to work.
READ MORE: http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2010/aug/06/voinovich-fuel-tax-hike-would-create-jobs-ar-181644/

Walker, you might want to read the actual letter:

http://voinovich.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=NewsCenter.PressReleases&ContentRecord_id=3d289488-c041-42d8-83dc-1967fd878ce8

Voinovich is advocating raising the gasoline tax and spending that on surface transportation. He contrasts that with borrowing money for social spending.

Posted 1 year ago #
johnwirtz
Evanston, IL
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rus wrote >>

Voinovich is advocating raising the gasoline tax and spending that on surface transportation. He contrasts that with borrowing money for social spending.

But won't that hurt the rural areas?

Posted 1 year ago #
rus

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johnwirtz wrote >>

rus wrote >>
Voinovich is advocating raising the gasoline tax and spending that on surface transportation. He contrasts that with borrowing money for social spending.

But won't that hurt the rural areas?

His idea seems to be the increase in fuel tax, if applied to surface transportation creates employment. He seems to think it's a net gain, as opposed to borrowing money for social spending.

Posted 1 year ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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I was just using the news as an opportunity to make a joke.

Sorry, left off the ;).

Posted 1 year ago #
johnwirtz
Evanston, IL
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rus wrote >>

johnwirtz wrote >>

rus wrote >>
Voinovich is advocating raising the gasoline tax and spending that on surface transportation. He contrasts that with borrowing money for social spending.

But won't that hurt the rural areas?

His idea seems to be the increase in fuel tax, if applied to surface transportation creates employment. He seems to think it's a net gain, as opposed to borrowing money for social spending.

I'm all for it. I was just trying to point out that it doesn't matter if we pay for transportation with a vehicle-miles-traveled tax or a higher fuel tax. Either way, people who drive farther lose. So I don't consider impact on the rural areas to be a very good argument against the VMT tax.

Posted 1 year ago #
News
Columbus Underground
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Bumpy road
Tuesday April 24, 2012 7:13 AM

The lopsided funding points out an inconvenient fact: The gasoline tax is premised on the America of the past. The state adopted its gasoline tax in 1925.

READ MORE: http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/editorials/2012/04/24/bumpy-road.html

Posted 1 month ago #
gramarye
In Exile
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News said:
Bumpy road
Tuesday April 24, 2012 7:13 AM

The lopsided funding points out an inconvenient fact: The gasoline tax is premised on the America of the past. The state adopted its gasoline tax in 1925.

READ MORE: http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/editorials/2012/04/24/bumpy-road.html

I think the best system would be a weight-mile VMT system, but a straight VMT system or a modified system based on weight classes, wheels, axles, etc. would work as well.

I agree with the privacy concerns about mandatory GPS in every vehicle, but I also think that some people would voluntarily allow a GPS in their vehicle both as an alternative to going to the DMV and also as a possible means of recovering a vehicle in the event of theft (assuming that it wasn't too effortless to disable).

Avoidance would be a serious problem unless you found a way to use the existing withholding mechanisms to withhold estimated VMT taxes from paychecks, based on estimated tax.

The other thorny issue is jurisdiction. Does mere registration in the state give Ohio authority to tax miles traveled in other states--wearing and tearing on other states' infrastructure? I honestly don't know.

Posted 4 weeks ago #
myliftkk
Columbus, OH
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gramarye said:
I think the best system would be a weight-mile VMT system, but a straight VMT system or a modified system based on weight classes, wheels, axles, etc. would work as well.

I agree with the privacy concerns about mandatory GPS in every vehicle, but I also think that some people would voluntarily allow a GPS in their vehicle both as an alternative to going to the DMV and also as a possible means of recovering a vehicle in the event of theft (assuming that it wasn't too effortless to disable).

Avoidance would be a serious problem unless you found a way to use the existing withholding mechanisms to withhold estimated VMT taxes from paychecks, based on estimated tax.

The other thorny issue is jurisdiction. Does mere registration in the state give Ohio authority to tax miles traveled in other states--wearing and tearing on other states' infrastructure? I honestly don't know.

Black boxes exist in most cars driven today (not necessarily black in the sense of crash proof), and were just legislated, even if people don't realize it, so adding GPS capability might be an element of that, though not necessarily.

Now, as far as driving miles in other States, there's a technological solution to that. You just record the incoming and outgoing of cars. Same principle by which toll roads record automated toll passage. There are, after all, limited roadway entry/exit points.

Avoidance is probably easier to deter than people think. Computers control nearly all aspects of new vehicle execution, so "killing" the ability to start a vehicle because you haven't paid you VMT tax isn't really a stretch. Or, next time you pull into Jiffy Lube, they tack on a $100 unpaid tax charge to your oil change bill. You could try avoidance through car purchases that don't have electronic brains, but the market for those is shrinking all of the time.

Posted 4 weeks ago #
columbusmike

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I think one of the big problems is there has been a lack of direction from the Obama administration. Nearly every state has transportation funding issues, Ohio is not alone. The Obama administration has really only offered a very lackluster high-speed rail initiative. There needs to be an overhaul to our nations transportation strategy - we need to look at not only high speed rail, but intercity light rail, subways, bike trails, etc. If we had a national strategy/direction, I think we wouldn't be fussing over VMT tax vs a gas tax -- we might actually accomplish something meaningful and reduce the glaring maintenance/cost nightmare that is our national road network.

Posted 4 weeks ago #
columbusmike

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These are all extremely complicated solutions! How do you put GPS in older cars? What about Alaska where GPS reception is poor? What happens when your signal is lost?

My problem with VMT is that what happens when people start driving even less because gasoline/electricity costs keep escalating? Then what do we do? VMT, in my opinion, is a temporary solution and doesn't solve the real issues facing this country on how we move people. Again, a lack of direction on national transportation is to blame.

Posted 4 weeks ago #
rus

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columbusmike said:
These are all extremely complicated solutions! How do you put GPS in older cars? What about Alaska where GPS reception is poor? What happens when your signal is lost?

Step 1: Put car in driveway.
Step 2: Turn on one of these.
Step 3: Drive as normal, with no GPS signals received by tracking device.
Step 4: Enjoy tax free driving.

Posted 4 weeks ago #
gramarye
In Exile
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columbusmike said:
These are all extremely complicated solutions! How do you put GPS in older cars? What about Alaska where GPS reception is poor? What happens when your signal is lost?

I think all of those are solvable.

My problem with VMT is that what happens when people start driving even less because gasoline/electricity costs keep escalating? Then what do we do? VMT, in my opinion, is a temporary solution and doesn't solve the real issues facing this country on how we move people. Again, a lack of direction on national transportation is to blame.

If they're driving less, they're putting less wear and tear on the roads. Why shouldn't they pay less?

Posted 4 weeks ago #
pedex

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columbusmike said:
These are all extremely complicated solutions! How do you put GPS in older cars? What about Alaska where GPS reception is poor? What happens when your signal is lost?

My problem with VMT is that what happens when people start driving even less because gasoline/electricity costs keep escalating? Then what do we do? VMT, in my opinion, is a temporary solution and doesn't solve the real issues facing this country on how we move people. Again, a lack of direction on national transportation is to blame.

it is already happening, people are driving less as they are being priced out of the market

and for the last few decades as the fuel taxes have not been able to actually fund the roads the remaining source of revenue has been taken from the general fund using borrowed money

The fuel taxes in effect are a mileage tax to begin with, the principal determining factor for vehicle mpg is weight. Bigger vehicles use more fuel and pay more tax. Commercial users with trucks also pay an added tax on top of what they pay at the pump.

As far as a "solution", a VMT is nothing more than an obfuscation tactic to avoid the fact that the current fuel taxes don't cover all the road costs.

As far as the oft mentioned what about rural users? what about them?? They made their own choice to live where they do voluntarily with the same knowledge as everyone else knowing the consequences, they already get dinged for their mileage as they should, what is the problem?

Wanna see people really kvetch and whine and cry? remove all the subsidies on driving and living in suburbia LOL. The subsidies are massive.

Posted 4 weeks ago #
columbusmike

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gramarye said:
If they're driving less, they're putting less wear and tear on the roads. Why shouldn't they pay less?

I'm pretty sure mother nature plays a much larger role in the wear and tear of roadways.

But, I'm with you that people who drive less should pay less in road taxes, but at some point you still need to generate revenue to maintain the system. If gas goes above $8, 9 or 10 gallons (and it will in the near future), a lot of people are going to be looking for alternatives....then how do you pay to keep the system maintained? We're right back at the same problem of inadequate funding.

I say raise the already-in-place gas tax to the level needed to maintain the system. It's a pretty simple system (you have to pay it if you fill up), plus it encourages people to look for alternative technology or ways to get from place to place. Sure, people who drive electric cars don't pay taxes, but it's an to incentive for using less foreign oil...which I would say is a good thing.

Posted 4 weeks ago #
myliftkk
Columbus, OH
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rus said:
Step 1: Put car in driveway.
Step 2: Turn on one of these.
Step 3: Drive as normal, with no GPS signals received by tracking device.
Step 4: Enjoy tax free driving.

The government will just estimate your bill then, the same as the gas company does if you don't let them read the meter. And unless you disable the odometer, your driving isn't tax free unless no one ever reads it.

You don't need GPS to communicate mileage information anyhow. You simply need and outbound signal that carries enough data to id the vehicle and record the mileage. This signal need not be broadcast indefinitely, it could for instance only be broadcast when a certain sig is received. You only need periodic mileage recording to appropriately charge a VMT. There's way too many places/manners where the information could be accessed, and your ability to keep a jammer running compromised, that avoidance would be a continual game of trying to outrun technology. Add that the ability to "kill" the machine digitally as a punishment, and my guess is the amount you lose to die hard avoiders becomes quite low.

Posted 4 weeks ago #
rus

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myliftkk said:
The government will just estimate your bill then, the same as the gas company does if you don't let them read the meter. And unless you disable the odometer, your driving isn't tax free unless no one ever reads it.

You don't need GPS to communicate mileage information anyhow. You simply need and outbound signal that carries enough data to id the vehicle and record the mileage. This signal need not be broadcast indefinitely, it could for instance only be broadcast when a certain sig is received. You only need periodic mileage recording to appropriately charge a VMT. There's way too many places/manners where the information could be accessed, and your ability to keep a jammer running compromised, that avoidance would be a continual game of trying to outrun technology. Add that the ability to "kill" the machine digitally as a punishment, and my guess is the amount you lose to die hard avoiders becomes quite low.

Then just disable whatever device you're envisioning, either directly through destruction of the device or shielding the device from radio signals.

Posted 4 weeks ago #
ColumbusTime

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kelseyg said:
Awful idea, as others have said. It doesn't even make sense... taxing gasoline is already a mileage tax (you go further, you use more gas.) This is just taking away the part that penalizes gas-guzzlers and drives demand for hybrids.

100% concur, mileage tax is a terrible idea. Maybe up the gas tax a bit, but also get rid of prevailing wage requirements in road contracts to make the money go further.

Then people, drive whatever type of car you want. SUV or Prius. The earth will get along just fine, despite all of the doomsayers.

PS - also agree, no way on gov't mandated GPS units.

Posted 4 weeks ago #