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Men's rights

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Started 1 year ago by GW_Justice
Latest reply from SamuraiJack

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GW_Justice
Grandview Hts.
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This board has attracted at least one proponent of the "Men's rights" movement. Rather than allow the discussion of this issue to degrade the conversation in other threads, I decided to create this one specifically for the issue.

The Issue: Men feel that society can be discriminating against them in unfair ways. Some of these are the mirror to the the complaints of women's groups, they feel that society has unrealistic expectations for body image, resulting in loss of status for overweight or unattractive men.

The biggest issue is divorce laws. The men who join the men's rights groups feel they have been treated unfairly, deprived of their children, screwed over financially.

Whatever the truth to this issue, the problem comes when they join together on the internet and commiserate, there are a number of online communities for these men. The group of men who have legitimate complaints is joined with a group who have earned their divorce through misogyny and abuse. This is not a combination that leads to reason and self-reflection. Fueled by the outrage of these communities, these men can spread their misogyny across other online communities, usually to poor results.

It is possible to have a reasonable debate about this issue - I hope. This thread is for those of you who can have that discussion.

Posted 1 year ago #
Manatee
The eternal present
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Interesting topic. I do feel compelled to paraphrase Groucho--

"What do you think of men's rights? I like both sides of them."

Posted 1 year ago #
JimL2

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The male rights movement is very close to my heart.

I'd say about 80% of the innovative humiliation porn released in the past five years has been femdom. You read that right: with the collapse of insex, and the jailing of Max Hardcore, the field has been dominated by producers and actors who are more interested in portraying a F/f or F/m than continue to mine the rich field of M/f. Looking back at the Girlvert series, you can see the influence creeping in from the fringe-mainstream, but just because it's an organic movement taking advantage of external circumstances doesn't make its domination of the medium (pun not intended) any more natural. I like thick-soled, strappy boots as much as anyone else, but 65%+ is just too much. I can't get off to a doughy guy being hit in the balls with a modified mongo bat (or whatever), and I feel that I shouldn't be forced to "adapt."

Sure there's still Japan, which has the advantages of pervasive schoolgirl uniforms and overcrowded cities full of disillusioned businessmen; but if you can't understand what the cameraman's saying then the point where the actress finally breaks down and cries un-forced tears loses all of its meaning. And if you think I'm going to learn more than "itai" and "gomenasai," or leaf through a pocket phrasebook just to find out what the director said about her boyfriend, you're crazy.

Yes yes, Brazil and Germany exist too. But look, it's bigger than that. We shouldn't be forced to go outside our country's borders to obtain this product, that's the sign of a deep cultural and economic failing. This is a domestic problem, and must be solved domestically. Men in America need to re-claim their manifest destiny.

And so I put this to you: Men will be oppressed until the following untenable sticking points are resolved...
-Men get suffrage
-Men hold more than 35% of all police, prosecuting attorney, and judicial positions
-There need to be male talk show hosts, male doctors, male authors, male television executives, male chefs, male sports players (in a different league if necessary).

I'm not asking for anything crazy, here. I'm not saying we need to put a man in the white house. I'm just saying that until men are equally represented in our culture and our government and our workforce, how can we expect to be respected?

Buy local, keep the dream, don't let the woman get you down.

Amen, brothers.

Posted 1 year ago #
GCrites80s
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Eh, who wants men working for them? Men don't like the health care field (except as doctors), which is where most of the job growth is these days. Since women know how to and are allowed to "do things" now, they are more desirable as workers in today's job market. As a man, I know that a man would rather work with women rather than men except for having a male buddy or two at work. It also seems that women often also prefer working with other women because they communicate well with each other. These are the two main reasons unemployment is so much higher among men than women. When men are unemployed, they are considered useless and consider themselves useless. Men will continue to decline in desirability until they are actually needed and wanted again.

Posted 1 year ago #
gramarye
In Exile
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Eh. When I hear "rights," I think of the law. I think of legal rights.

Too often, both women's rights and all the (limited) material I've seen about a "men's rights" movement is about cultural parity, which is not a legal entitlement. There are very, very few things remaining in which there are true legal barriers between the sexes.

I think we're probably actually getting to the point where women are going to lose their status as a "protected class" under Supreme Court jurisprudence; within this generation, that fight is going to be considered won, at least by the courts. Women form the majority of college graduates at the moment and are rapidly rising in growing sectors of the economy.

Give me an example of a genuine "men's rights" issue. The domestic relations example is a legitimate one; that's already on the table, and I'll agree with the men's rights advocates there (notwithstanding a subpar advocate for the same with a recent, fleeting, ephemeral presence on CU). There are good parents of both sexes and there should not necessarily be a thumb on the scale in favor of either parent at the beginning of a custody battle.

What else? College admissions? It's true that I would have no legal problem with someone setting up a "men in nursing" or "men in teaching" scholarship, in the same vein as the women in engineering and women in business scholarships that already exist. I actually think that most people wouldn't care about something like that anymore, and I actually don't know what law such a scholarship (privately offered, of course, not from the government) would necessarily violate, though I'm no expert there.

I guess I'm sympathetic to the point that Title IX has done more harm than good, especially to athletics programs. I don't know if that's a "men's rights" issue or not, really. (I think it caused the elimination of a lot of men's sports at schools where football wasn't lucrative enough to subsidize everything else, often including an extremely expensive women's rowing team.) I don't consider that one of the grand, pressing issues of the day, though.

What other issues come under this heading?

Posted 1 year ago #
cc

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I can't think f too many other than divorces. I guess mandatory draft registration is a minor one.

Posted 1 year ago #
rus

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cc wrote >>
I can't think f too many other than divorces. I guess mandatory draft registration is a minor one.

Minor indeed; considering the nature of the force today instituting the draft could only be done during something like an actual invasion. Anything less and it would be too disruptive to be worth the effort.

Another military related minor note might be the combat exclusion law which prohibits women from some occupational specialties ( special operations, infantry and armor come to mind ).

Figure that won't go away until physical readiness standards can be equalized, which would require more intensive training for the average woman, simply based on average upper body composition. Given the nature of the average recruit, this may become part of an overall increase in physical readiness training.

Posted 1 year ago #
misskitty
Columbus
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I do believe that mens rights are compromised at times. I have seen the shaft be giving to some beyond things like custody it stretches far deeper then just parental rights.

Posted 1 year ago #
Paul
Vancouver, BC
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Since everyone else is ignoring it let me tell you JimL2 that your post was once of the best seemingly-misguided offtopic sarcastic diatribes I have ever read.

Posted 1 year ago #
Cookie
Flyntonville
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Paul wrote >>
Since everyone else is ignoring it let me tell you JimL2 that your post was once of the best seemingly-misguided offtopic sarcastic diatribes I have ever read.

I'm pretty sure he was being serious. I didn't mention how much less money men make in porn than women because I didn't want to upset him any more than he already was.

Posted 1 year ago #
jeff_r

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I guess it's interesting to see some men adopting the tactics of identity politics, especially when men have been the most likely to deride that particular approach to social change in the past.

Also, according to The American Enterprise Institute (LOL), we're not in a recession, we're in a mancession.

What About Economic Security and Jobs for America's Men?

Posted 1 year ago #
berdawn
near that stretch of N. High Street in the Short North
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jeff_r wrote >>
I guess it's interesting to see some men adopting the tactics of identity politics, especially when men have been the most likely to deride that particular approach to social change in the past.
Also, according to The American Enterprise Institute (LOL), we're not in the recession, we're in a mancession.
What About Economic Security and Jobs for America's Men?

The only thing the Enterprise Institute gets right is a check for Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Posted 1 year ago #
rus

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jeff_r wrote >>
I guess it's interesting to see some men adopting the tactics of identity politics, especially when men have been the most likely to deride that particular approach to social change in the past.

If a white male acted on identity politics, then wouldn't he be promoting his race and gender?

Pro-white = racist
Pro-male = sexist

Seems like a losing proposition, at least in terms of public opinion.

Posted 1 year ago #
gramarye
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I don't think it's out of line to note that the recession has had a disparately large impact on men. I think it's possible--it has to be possible--to talk about demographics without engaging in identity politics.

Men have been hit hardest by the recession because the economic sectors hit hardest by the recession (e.g., construction) tend to hire statistically significantly more men than women. We can observe that fact without implying some kind of discrimination against women in hiring in those sectors when times or good or discrimination against men when firing in those sectors when times are bad.

Posted 1 year ago #
Cookie
Flyntonville
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gramarye wrote >>
I don't think it's out of line to note that the recession has had a disparately large impact on men. I think it's possible--it has to be possible--to talk about demographics without engaging in identity politics.
Men have been hit hardest by the recession because the economic sectors hit hardest by the recession (e.g., construction) tend to hire statistically significantly more men than women. We can observe that fact without implying some kind of discrimination against women in hiring in those sectors when times or good or discrimination against men when firing in those sectors when times are bad.

You're just going to get JimL2 all worked up about porn again.

Posted 1 year ago #
rus

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gramarye wrote >>
it has to be possible--to talk about demographics without engaging in identity politics.

Just so long as the "right" identities don't feel bad, I suppose.

Otherwise you're just a sexist bigot.

Posted 1 year ago #
JimL2

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rus wrote >>
Just so long as the "right" identities don't feel bad, I suppose.
Otherwise you're just a sexist bigot.

are you talking about black people?

Posted 1 year ago #
GCrites80s
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I find sausage fest jobs depressing. For what it's worth, I mostly work alone at my current vocation. What I do know is that if you put a bunch of men together at work it essentially turns into prison. Lots of fistfights, cursing, complaining, plotting to kill the boss, etc.

Posted 1 year ago #
Tenzo
Chicago Lakeshore
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GCrites80s wrote >>
Eh, who wants men working for them? Men don't like the health care field (except as doctors), which is where most of the job growth is these days.

As of 2007 there are more women in medical school than men.
Those days are over.

Unknown to a portion of the population who call my wife nurse or ask for the doctor.

(There are exceptions. Ortho will always be male dominated. But on the average, there will be more women doctors than men.
'Turn your head a cough')

Posted 1 year ago #
misskitty
Columbus
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One thing that really irks me is the amount of crying wolf with women.In a study that span nine years, sociologist Eugene J. KaninÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s findings were that in the United States, 41% of rape allegations are false. Kanin discovered that most of the false accusers were motivated by a need for an alibi or seeking revenge.

Remember over the summer their was a girl who was abducted by someone and raped. Then she gets on the news and tried to act like this "brave" and strong women by telling her attacker that she won't let him do this to anyone else. What she did not say is that she in fact is a hooker and was pissed the guy didn't pay her thirty bucks.

I honestly believe that if you falsely accuse someone of rape or molestation and you try ruin their life, if it is found out that the accuser is lying they should get the time that the accused would have got if found guilty.

It's stuff like this that really screws a man it's not fair at all. I would not be so harsh if I didn't already know lots of trifling females that have done this.

Posted 1 year ago #