Cookie
Flyntonville
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somertimeoh wrote >>
(as is this one since she, like you, has not even been involved in the on topic discussion at all)
And yet, here's Andrew Hall dragging me into the thread anyway. Just because you don't agree with someone's comment doesn't make it an outburst or crazy. Maybe what should stop around here is the scapegoating and ganging up on people.
somertimeoh
Harrison West
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My comment wasn't about you, I'm not engaging you any further.
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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Paul wrote >>
As for the Amtrack Cascades route. I lived 3 blocks from the Bellingham station, and I never rode it once. Nobody who came to visit me in Bellingham (from either Vancouver or Seattle or Portland) ever rode it. I've never even heard of anyone I know or anyone they know riding it.
I don't really find that too surprising to hear coming from a fellow young and able-bodied person. Personally speaking, I probably wouldn't ride the 3C Corridor too often myself. Maybe on a few occasions here and there, but when traveling with a family of four, it's more economical to drive a Honda Fit from Columbus to one of the other C's. We also travel a lot more frequently to the Canton area anyway, so this doesn't help us there either.
So, I'm not in favor of this project based on personal ridership. Part of the reason I'm in favor of it is for providing options for people who want those options... business travelers who the timetables are more convenient for, students with no cars, the elderly with no cars, the disabled, people who just plain don't want/like to drive (I'm often in that category), and so on and so forth. Any neighborhood or city or region or state can only be truly diverse if it provides options for all types of people.
I brought up the Cascade route and the possibility that you may have elected officials within your voting jurisdiction that may want to kill the federal funding not as an insult or as any way to say that you don't like other forms of rail transportation (I'm really not sure how you got that, or if that was just carryover from what other people were saying and you were lumping me in when you called them "insane"). I brought it up because the Pacific Northwest is receiving federal funding, just like the 3C:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/09/04/16/a-vision-for-high-speed-rail/
The only difference is that this Pacific NW funding is for upgrading 79mph service to something faster and more frequent (I'm pretty sure the trains running can go 110mph but the tracks need upgraded) and the funding for the 3C is to start the 79mph service that we should already still have from long ago, with upgrades in the pipeline (link 1, link 2).
Anyway... just thought I should clarify what I meant since it sounded like you were under the impression that I was trying to be snarky instead of just being brief (which is about all I have time for some days). ;)
Nitsud Regnifloh
Valerio Heights
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talk about convenience...the Greyhound goes here:
Akron
Apple Creek
Ashtabula
Athens
Cambridge
Canton
Chillicothe
Cincinnati
Cleveland
Columbus
Dayton
Elyria
Fairfield (B)
Findlay
Kenton
Lima
Mansfield
Marietta
Marion
Mt Eaton
Nelsonville (B)
New Philadelphia
Newcomerstown
Sandusky
Springfield
Toledo
Van Wert
West Salem
Wooster
Youngstown
Zanesville
gramarye
In Exile
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NR, how many times have you ridden a Greyhound? Was the experience (counting everything--departure times, punctuality, comfort, speed, etc.) worth the price, in your opinion?
Also, how can you justify talking about the allegedly slow pace of the 3C and then turn around and hold up Greyhound as an alternative?
myliftkk
Columbus, OH
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BG wrote >>
gramarye wrote >>
BG wrote >>
Nitsud,
It's a herd menatlity. You dare to be against 3C, so you are impugned. Keep your head up.
3C is a boondoggle like various other major rail projects. If there was a ton of money to be made, believe me people would have invested in it a long time ago.Why do you not apply this standard to highway construction projects? (Or do you? Should be privatize the entire highway grid?)
Gram,
I have no qualms about the privatization of the highway grid. Have a National "Sunpass" (Florida) and be assessed a fee.
I apply difffrent standards because roads serve a much more versatile function for the economy. They allow a multitude of different types of vehicles to conduct commerce. Whether it be car, light truck, heavy truck, emergency vehicle, etc., roads allow individuals, sole prorpieters, small business and big business to conduct daily operations to serve customers. Obviously, in a logistical sense, rail can never match roads.
Equally obvious is the flaw in your logistics argument.
The most expensive portion of logistics is the last mile that involves taking something off a train, and driving it to its destination. A huge amount of goods move by train regularly, and far more cheaply than by truck. And many businesses of all sizes use trains via their shipping providers to move physical products. You're confusing implied flexibility as having no impact on efficiency and cost. In a logistical equation, unused flexibility connotes a negative impact on efficiency and cost because there are costs a business is going to pay whether or not it uses/needs the flexibility roads afford. Hence, why UPS ships virtually all packages by train between centers and only moves to driver-operated vehicles for the final leg.
The trade-off in trains is you give up destination and schedule flexibility for maintenance and cost efficiencies. For many people/business this is an effective trade-off in economic terms since unused flexibility might as well not exist so long as it remains unused.
johnwirtz
Evanston, IL
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Walker wrote >>
Paul wrote >>
As for the Amtrack Cascades route. I lived 3 blocks from the Bellingham station, and I never rode it once. Nobody who came to visit me in Bellingham (from either Vancouver or Seattle or Portland) ever rode it. I've never even heard of anyone I know or anyone they know riding it.I don't really find that too surprising to hear coming from a fellow young and able-bodied person. Personally speaking, I probably wouldn't ride the 3C Corridor too often myself. Maybe on a few occasions here and there, but when traveling with a family of four, it's more economical to drive a Honda Fit from Columbus to one of the other C's. We also travel a lot more frequently to the Canton area anyway, so this doesn't help us there either.
So, I'm not in favor of this project based on personal ridership. Part of the reason I'm in favor of it is for providing options for people who want those options... business travelers who the timetables are more convenient for, students with no cars, the elderly with no cars, the disabled, people who just plain don't want/like to drive (I'm often in that category), and so on and so forth. Any neighborhood or city or region or state can only be truly diverse if it provides options for all types of people.
I brought up the Cascade route and the possibility that you may have elected officials within your voting jurisdiction that may want to kill the federal funding not as an insult or as any way to say that you don't like other forms of rail transportation (I'm really not sure how you got that, or if that was just carryover from what other people were saying and you were lumping me in when you called them "insane"). I brought it up because the Pacific Northwest is receiving federal funding, just like the 3C:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/09/04/16/a-vision-for-high-speed-rail/
The only difference is that this Pacific NW funding is for upgrading 79mph service to something faster and more frequent (I'm pretty sure the trains running can go 110mph but the tracks need upgraded) and the funding for the 3C is to start the 79mph service that we should already still have from long ago, with upgrades in the pipeline (link 1, link 2).
Anyway... just thought I should clarify what I meant since it sounded like you were under the impression that I was trying to be snarky instead of just being brief (which is about all I have time for some days). ;)
I was in Portland once and rode the Cascades route to see my aunt in Eugene. It was really nice to be able to take a day trip to do that without renting a car (especially because I was under 25 at the time). I did experience some freight interference delays, but that's all the more reason to invest in improving the service.
Central City Recording
Clintonville
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Once again NR, you are totally missing the point.
Every major city in North America has Greyhound service. Of the top ten Greyhound stations (by passenger volume) all of them except Richmond VA also have passenger rail. It is not an either-or situation. The 3C corridor is the most densely populated corridor in the country without passenger rail service, having Greyhound doesn't change that.
If your only talking points are going to be that it's too expensive (already been addressed) and that we don't need it because we have cars and buses (totally irrelevant) than I think you've made your case. The fact that is, it doesn't hold water. You can be against it all you want, but so far you've only proven to me that you have a misinformed opinion.
Nitsud Regnifloh
Valerio Heights
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Walker wrote >>
Nitsud Regnifloh wrote >>
talk about convenience...the Greyhound goes here:I'm totally in favor of 110+mph buses! Make it happen Nitsud! :D
me too. let's bring this back...Spruce Goose
osulew
My house...in the middle of my street
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Nitsud Regnifloh wrote >>
Walker wrote >>
Nitsud Regnifloh wrote >>
talk about convenience...the Greyhound goes here:I'm totally in favor of 110+mph buses! Make it happen Nitsud! :D
me too. let's bring this back...Spruce Goose
You guys just need to call some high-speed bus consultants. ;)
Nitsud Regnifloh
Valerio Heights
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Central City Recording wrote >>
Once again NR, you are totally missing the point.
Every major city in North America has Greyhound service. Of the top ten Greyhound stations (by passenger volume) all of them except Richmond VA also have passenger rail. It is not an either-or situation. The 3C corridor is the most densely populated corridor in the country without passenger rail service, having Greyhound doesn't change that.
If your only talking points are going to be that it's too expensive (already been addressed) and that we don't need it because we have cars and buses (totally irrelevant) than I think you've made your case. The fact that is, it doesn't hold water. You can be against it all you want, but so far you've only proven to me that you have a misinformed opinion.
my humblest apologies, oh great one...
Central City Recording
Clintonville
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Check out the map of proposed high-speed lines in this CNN article. Looks like they put a star right in the middle of our great state. In the article, it says that "Most high-speed rail lines in the United States will be upgraded using existing freight rail rights-of-way." We got $$$ from the feds to start passenger rail, presumably because they want us to get started on the transition so we can be positioned for high-speed sooner than later. As has been stated before, we are already behind the ball here. The 3C is the start, not the end, and if we don't start somewhere, we will go nowhere.
Central City Recording
Clintonville
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Don't apologize to me man, apologize to your kids. Your lack of foresight on this and presumably a host of other issues you deem "boondoggles" are setting them back, not me...
rus
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Central City Recording wrote >>
if we don't start somewhere, we will go nowhere.
Which is perfectly OK with me.
Sure, 3C represents a tiny amount of the state transportation budget, so I'm not against it. At the same time, if this is something only a tiny percentage of people will use, who cares if it's never built?
gramarye
In Exile
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rus wrote >>
Central City Recording wrote >>
if we don't start somewhere, we will go nowhere.Which is perfectly OK with me.
Sure, 3C represents a tiny amount of the state transportation budget, so I'm not against it. At the same time, if this is something only a tiny percentage of people will use, who cares if it's never built?
We're a big enough country now that even a small percentage of people can be a large number of people. The percentages still matter a good deal, of course, but 1% of a extremely large number is still a very large number. The percentages matter because I wouldn't want to be spending 5% of the budget on a system that 1% would ride.
Andrew Hall
Dennison Place (The Circles)
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gramarye wrote >>
rus wrote >>
Central City Recording wrote >>
if we don't start somewhere, we will go nowhere.Which is perfectly OK with me.
Sure, 3C represents a tiny amount of the state transportation budget, so I'm not against it. At the same time, if this is something only a tiny percentage of people will use, who cares if it's never built?We're a big enough country now that even a small percentage of people can be a large number of people. The percentages still matter a good deal, of course, but 1% of a extremely large number is still a very large number. The percentages matter because I wouldn't want to be spending 5% of the budget on a system that 1% would ride.
Even that is a false understanding as budgets are not democratic. eg - Would you be willing to spend 5% of a budget on something that is utilized by 1% of people who generate 10% (20%, 30%, 90%) of revenue? Businesses do all the time.
A.
rus
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gramarye wrote >>
rus wrote >>
Central City Recording wrote >>
if we don't start somewhere, we will go nowhere.Which is perfectly OK with me.
Sure, 3C represents a tiny amount of the state transportation budget, so I'm not against it. At the same time, if this is something only a tiny percentage of people will use, who cares if it's never built?We're a big enough country now that even a small percentage of people can be a large number of people. The percentages still matter a good deal, of course, but 1% of a extremely large number is still a very large number. The percentages matter because I wouldn't want to be spending 5% of the budget on a system that 1% would ride.
Provided the system in place serves a large percentage of the population, I'm less concerned about 1%.
Heck, a lot of 3C advocates are apparently in the "I won't ride it but want it built" category. Given the small percentage this project appears to be of the overall transportation budget, I'm more in the "I won't ride it and don't care if it's built" category.
HeySquare
German Village
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rus wrote >>
Sure, 3C represents a tiny amount of the state transportation budget, so I'm not against it. At the same time, if this is something only a tiny percentage of people will use, who cares if it's never built?
I just think that is backward: if it can sustain itself on some level of efficient ridership, why NOT build it? If it provides one additional option for consumers, and can be run with some modest level of investment, why limit ourselves to cars? If the percentage of people using a new system didn't have transportation options open to them before-- the elderly, the disabled, people without cars, you have one answer. If some of that percentage releives some congestion on highways, you have another answer. If it allows a more regional economy to grow up between Cincinnati, Columbus, and Cleveland (and don't say Greyhound, no one seriously considers commuting on Greyhound) then why not?
Perhaps the 3C line is limited in it's appeal right now, but if it can create enough ridership to validate it's existence, the system will expand. To areas like Indianapolis and Chicago, Louisville and further south. I70 wouldn't be that big a deal if it only went from here to Indianapolis and back.
As the system gets better, larger, and more efficient, all of the issues that people raise will also start to disappear. Rail works on the east coast becasue all the pieces are in place-- options for local mass transit in DC, NY, Philly, Boston; regional rail; and efficient, regular, and pleasant service.
You have to start somewhere.
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