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Not to bicker too much - but it boils down to a lot more than safety. There are a lot of places that are safe where I wouldn't want to live. It's about the quality of life in this city, and pooling our resources where we think they add value for all of us. I think Columbus would be fine with 10 fewer fire fighters and 20 fewer cops. But close down the rec centers, postpone maintenance on parks, sidewalks, streetscapes, business development, de-fund health centers? No thanks.
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Issue 1
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greenhouse1014
Columbus
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joev wrote >>
Not to bicker too much - but it boils down to a lot more than safety. There are a lot of places that are safe where I wouldn't want to live. It's about the quality of life in this city, and pooling our resources where we think they add value for all of us. I think Columbus would be fine with 10 fewer fire fighters and 20 fewer cops. But close down the rec centers, postpone maintenance on parks, sidewalks, streetscapes, business development, de-fund health centers? No thanks.You think that until it takes 30 minutes for the police to arrive at your house when someone breaks in or your house burns down because it took too long for the fire fighters to get there because they're firehouse is too far away because they closed the one that was closer.
Posted 2 years ago # -
JonMyers
HCMC ✈
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I have zero expertise with what it takes to respond to an emergency situation, but let me share something from yesterday and something I see happen a lot here.
We were standing on High street when the paramedics arrive to pick up a drunk who was a health hazard to himself at a bar. Behind the emergency van, a hook and ladder shows up with a team of firefighters. BTW - the man was not on fire. I couldn't help but to stand there and see cash burning. Is this response typical? I don't seem to recall a hook and ladder appearing every time an emergency squad is called in other cities. Seems wasteful.
Posted 2 years ago # -
gramarye
In Exile
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Stu Redman wrote >>
SAFETY,SAFETY,SAFETY...
It boils down to the safety of the citizens, the fire fighters, and the police officers of Columbus.
It's a small price to pay for safety!At the end of the day, it's rare to see cops and firefighters actually laid off. Cities like to threaten that because it gets attention and makes passing higher taxes sound more urgent. When push comes to shove, however, it's more likely that cuts will be made in more discretionary social services--parks, rec centers, etc. that are luxuries, not necessities.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Rockmastermike
CORNspiracy HQ
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gramarye wrote >>
Stu Redman wrote >>
SAFETY,SAFETY,SAFETY...
It boils down to the safety of the citizens, the fire fighters, and the police officers of Columbus.
It's a small price to pay for safety!At the end of the day, it's rare to see cops and firefighters actually laid off. Cities like to threaten that because it gets attention and makes passing higher taxes sound more urgent. When push comes to shove, however, it's more likely that cuts will be made in more discretionary social services--parks, rec centers, etc. that are luxuries, not necessities.
I seriously do not think there is $100 million of 'more discretionary social services' left. The entire general fund is $650 million. Of that, 71% (465) is public service budget. that leaves $186 million for everything else. Take away 100 million of that and good luck funding trash services and stuff like that.
anyway, the whole thing is here: http://finance.columbus.gov/uploadedFiles/Finance_and_Management/Financial_Management_Division/Budget_Management/2009_Budget/31%20All%20Funds%20Summary%20-%20Narrative.pdf
if you can find 100 mill in there that can be cut without laying off a lot of cops and firemen or really screwing something else up, then you're better at it than I am. Individual departments may have some "fat" to trim, but none of that looks like it adds up to 100 mill unless you want to shut down the entire parks and rec department (as has been proposed) or stuff like that.
I think even cutting every department an even 15% across the board would still result in police and fire layoffs. I can't see how it wouldn't, given that the vast majority of both of their budgets is for personnel (177 and 236 mill respectively).
Posted 2 years ago # -
howatzer
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JonMyers wrote >>
I have zero expertise with what it takes to respond to an emergency situation, but let me share something from yesterday and something I see happen a lot here.
We were standing on High street when the paramedics arrive to pick up a drunk who was a health hazard to himself at a bar. Behind the emergency van, a hook and ladder shows up with a team of firefighters. BTW - the man was not on fire. I couldn't help but to stand there and see cash burning. Is this response typical? I don't seem to recall a hook and ladder appearing every time an emergency squad is called in other cities. Seems wasteful.Yeah, I had 4 cruisers show up to a drunken bum fight I called in a couple weeks ago. I appreciate the response, guys, but a bit overkill? Do drunken bums in columbus carry AK47's?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Rockmastermike
CORNspiracy HQ
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howatzer wrote >>
JonMyers wrote >>
I have zero expertise with what it takes to respond to an emergency situation, but let me share something from yesterday and something I see happen a lot here.
We were standing on High street when the paramedics arrive to pick up a drunk who was a health hazard to himself at a bar. Behind the emergency van, a hook and ladder shows up with a team of firefighters. BTW - the man was not on fire. I couldn't help but to stand there and see cash burning. Is this response typical? I don't seem to recall a hook and ladder appearing every time an emergency squad is called in other cities. Seems wasteful.Yeah, I had 4 cruisers show up to a drunken bum fight I called in a couple weeks ago. I appreciate the response, guys, but a bit overkill? Do drunken bums in columbus carry AK47's?
On busy nights you wouldn't see that, they would all be busy elsewhere and the list of waiting (non urgent) runs starts piling up. The trick is figuring out in advance which nights are going to be the busy ones and cutting the number of officers on the other nights without risking understaffing on the busy ones.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Mercurius
First Avenue
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If this, generally progressive, group is so split, I think this thing passing is looking more ominous by the day. I support it but doubt it has much of a chance.
While maybe not the most convincing to those of us wanting to see downtown continue to improve, I received this in my email today:
Every year since 2001, Columbus city leaders have budgeted and spent more money than the city received in revenue despite the fact that city revenues increased by about $100 million. (City of Columbus 2009 Budget Section 3- Financial Overview, Page 3-5)
VOTE “NO†on ISSUE ONE this TUESDAY, August 4!
Not Right Now.
Folks, this Tuesday, August 4th, in a special August election not held since 1916, without your action, the city income tax rate on those who live OR WORK in Columbus will increase by 25%. Want to save 25%? You would act immediately if that savings applied to an increase in your mortgage, or your grocery bill. Sometimes when it comes to tax dollars, our eyes gloss over. But think about this: YOU CAN SAVE YOUR 25% WITH ONE SINGLE ACTION. If you do not act, this money will be carved from your budget starting in October -- additional money withheld from your paycheck or in quarterly estimated payments -- meaning less you bring home.
Have the leaders of the City of Columbus earned your trust to spend more of your money? Have they convinced you of wise and focused oversight of city revenue? Have they proven they are doing all they can to provide you the basics they are charged to provide? How about in the shadow of the $56 million signature bridge being built downtown? Promenades, theaters and downtown lofts? And all the approved cost overruns that seem to be part of the norm anymore? Do you really care what pot it's from since everything the city does and spends all comes from the same pocket -- ours?
Taxpayers deserve a reasonable plan.
Until the following steps are taken, we must say, 'Not Right Now' and vote "NO" this Tuesday, August 4th. Saying "NO" on August 4th does not mean "never" - what this is saying is, if the city is going to be given more money from the pockets of cash-strapped taxpayers, then taxpayers deserve due diligence, deserve a guarantee as to where their money is going and deserve knowing it is being done right -- not a quick fix packaged in threats and scare tactics.
Before a tax increase is presented to the voters, Columbus taxpayers first deserve these three reasonable actions:
· An independent, outside evaluation of city operations, spending and efficiencies. The city has shown it cannot be objective and has not made the tough cuts and decisions that are needed.
· A written guarantee that this money will go to essential services like police and fire. Despite all the hype of police and fire jobs on the line, NOT ONE DOLLAR IS GUARANTEED TO POLICE AND FIRE. This plan is a PERMANENT (forever and ever) blank check that will give $100 million every year to city leaders to spend as they see fit.
· Consideration of a TEMPORARY tax increase rather than a permanent one to bridge this controllable budget gap IF - after all other options have been exhausted - more of your hard-earned income is needed to protect essential city services.
Time is running out to save 25%.
You can vote on this issue ANYTIME this week downtown at the Board of Elections located at 280 E. Broad Street. For a map, click HERE. Parking, accessed from Gay Street, is free. It takes only minutes to get in, vote and be on your way! BOE Hours are Thursday and Friday from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m., Saturday from 8 a.m. to Noon, and Monday from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. If you don’t vote early, be sure to show up at your usual polling location to vote on August 4th anytime from 6:30 a.m. to 7:30 p.m. Have Questions? Call the Board of Elections at 462-3100.
What can I do if I can’t vote?
More than half of the people impacted by this tax increase do not live in Columbus and have no say in this matter, hit with this possible increase simply because they work in Columbus. Few non-resident Columbus workers would dispute the importance of paying their fair “share†for the city services they receive while in the city; however, the line must be drawn at affording an increase due mostly to reckless overspending and poor fiscal oversight in this clear case of ‘taxation without representation’. You need to reach out to Columbus family, friends and co-workers this week by forwarding this email or giving them a call. Make sure they know the facts and about this vote on Tuesday, intentionally kept quiet by city leaders who are not seeking informed consent of the voters, but rather more money to continue their reckless pattern of overbudgeting and overspending.
Talk to your city employer too, and let them know the difficulty an additional tax burden will bring to your family in these extraordinarily difficult and uncertain times! And for those small business owners in Columbus, take an extra glance at that quarterly estimated tax payment you're getting ready to mail out to the city July 31 -- that's about to go up 25%!
Go to your polls and VOTE NO on ISSUE ONE this Tuesday!
(And be sure to pass this along to Columbus friends, family and co-workers who may still be unaware of this vote!)
Posted 2 years ago # -
howatzer
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Do we know that that the tax hike is even going to cover the deficit?
If revenues go down even more next year, won't we have raise taxes more to keep the same services?
If the tax hike is only enough to just cover expenditures, is it a good idea to spend at the level of income, with no surplus to buffer shortfalls (i.e. rainy day fund)?
If city services are proportional to "quality of life", why not raise them more? Why not to 3%, 4%, 5%?
Have there been any projections in the decrease in city business revenue that the tax increase will cause, and is it a good idea to force this decrease during a recession?Sorry for all the questions - I'm a bit slow and am trying to catch up.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Tito Swanson
Galloway
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CbusIslander wrote >>
I am leaning yes but reluctantly. I can't see why police and fire as important as they are, can't do at least a "across the board" 5% salary cut. Frankly, I do not want to see a raise in the force till 2011. That is the least amount they can do for saying "Thanks for voting yes and keeping my job"
Economic Growth is the important factor, the city needs to double or triple its effort to attact out of region companies to locate here, if the south can why can't we?If I remember correctly Columbus Firefighters deferred their 4% raise earlier this year (that by the way they were entitled to by contract) in order to "try" to help the city with their financial woes. And Columbus Police have been working at the same pay without a contract for almost 2 years. Not to be forgotten is Parks/Recs, The Health Dept. etc. The "little people" have been taking the hits for years, and if Issue 1 fails they will take yet one more, and this one could be fatal. The Mayor isn't going to lay off his staff. City Council is not going to cut their staffing by 25%. Why take a chance on ruining our city, and the services that are provided? I'm reluctant to vote "yes", but I don't want to take a chance by voting "no". A lot of lives could be affected by this issue.
Posted 2 years ago # -
greenhouse1014
Columbus
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Mercurius wrote >>
If this, generally progressive, group is so split, I think this thing passing is looking more ominous by the day. I support it but doubt it has much of a chance.
While maybe not the most convincing to those of us wanting to see downtown continue to improve, I received this in my email today:
Every year since 2001, Columbus city leaders have budgeted and spent more money than the city received in revenue despite the fact that city revenues increased by about $100 million. (City of Columbus 2009 Budget Section 3- Financial Overview, Page 3-5)
VOTE “NO†on ISSUE ONE this TUESDAY, August 4!
Not Right Now.
Folks, this Tuesday, August 4th, in a special August election not held since 1916, without your action, the city income tax rate on those who live OR WORK in Columbus will increase by 25%. Want to save 25%? You would act immediately if that savings applied to an increase in your mortgage, or your grocery bill. Sometimes when it comes to tax dollars, our eyes gloss over. But think about this: YOU CAN SAVE YOUR 25% WITH ONE SINGLE ACTION. If you do not act, this money will be carved from your budget starting in October -- additional money withheld from your paycheck or in quarterly estimated payments -- meaning less you bring home.
...on ISSUE ONE this Tuesday!
(And be sure to pass this along to Columbus friends, family and co-workers who may still be unaware of this vote!)Is this really how it went out? I ask because it's only 2.5%, right? The email says 25% and is very misleading and, if I'm right and its only 2.5 and not 25, seems to be illegal.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Mercurius
First Avenue
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I think they are referring to it being a 25% increase(e.g. going from 2% to 2.5%.)greenhouse1014 wrote >>
Mercurius wrote >>
If this, generally progressive, group is so split, I think this thing passing is looking more ominous by the day. I support it but doubt it has much of a chance.
While maybe not the most convincing to those of us wanting to see downtown continue to improve, I received this in my email today:
Every year since 2001, Columbus city leaders have budgeted and spent more money than the city received in revenue despite the fact that city revenues increased by about $100 million. (City of Columbus 2009 Budget Section 3- Financial Overview, Page 3-5)
VOTE “NO†on ISSUE ONE this TUESDAY, August 4!
Not Right Now.
Folks, this Tuesday, August 4th, in a special August election not held since 1916, without your action, the city income tax rate on those who live OR WORK in Columbus will increase by 25%. Want to save 25%? You would act immediately if that savings applied to an increase in your mortgage, or your grocery bill. Sometimes when it comes to tax dollars, our eyes gloss over. But think about this: YOU CAN SAVE YOUR 25% WITH ONE SINGLE ACTION. If you do not act, this money will be carved from your budget starting in October -- additional money withheld from your paycheck or in quarterly estimated payments -- meaning less you bring home.
...on ISSUE ONE this Tuesday!
(And be sure to pass this along to Columbus friends, family and co-workers who may still be unaware of this vote!)Is this really how it went out? I ask because it's only 2.5%, right? The email says 25% and is very misleading and, if I'm right and its only 2.5 and not 25, seems to be illegal.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Rockmastermike
CORNspiracy HQ
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B_C_B
Upper Arlington
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Rockmastermike wrote >>
Mercurius wrote >>
I think they are referring to it being a 25% increase(e.g. going from 2% to 2.5%.)it's funny... people who make a point to state things in the most sensationalist way possible usually end up persuading me of exactly the opposite of what they had intended.
It's not really misleading. You will be paying 25% more in city income tax if this passes. 2% tax on $10,000 is 200 and a 2.5% tax on $10,000 is 250 which is 25% more than 200.
Posted 2 years ago # -
howatzer
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B_C_B wrote >>
Rockmastermike wrote >>
Mercurius wrote >>
I think they are referring to it being a 25% increase(e.g. going from 2% to 2.5%.)it's funny... people who make a point to state things in the most sensationalist way possible usually end up persuading me of exactly the opposite of what they had intended.
It's not really misleading. You will be paying 25% more in city income tax if this passes. 2% tax on $10,000 is 200 and a 2.5% tax on $10,000 is 250 which is 25% more than 200.
Yeah, saying that it's a 0.5% increase to the tax rate is actually more misleading because it's just not correct. Saying the tax rate is increasing 25% to 2.5% would get you the bonus point on the Algebra 1 exam. But, heh, math is for losers.
Posted 2 years ago # -
CbusIslander
Cbus Islander
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Tito Swanson wrote >>
CbusIslander wrote >>
I am leaning yes but reluctantly. I can't see why police and fire as important as they are, can't do at least a "across the board" 5% salary cut. Frankly, I do not want to see a raise in the force till 2011. That is the least amount they can do for saying "Thanks for voting yes and keeping my job"
Economic Growth is the important factor, the city needs to double or triple its effort to attact out of region companies to locate here, if the south can why can't we?If I remember correctly Columbus Firefighters deferred their 4% raise earlier this year (that by the way they were entitled to by contract) in order to "try" to help the city with their financial woes. And Columbus Police have been working at the same pay without a contract for almost 2 years. Not to be forgotten is Parks/Recs, The Health Dept. etc. The "little people" have been taking the hits for years, and if Issue 1 fails they will take yet one more, and this one could be fatal. The Mayor isn't going to lay off his staff. City Council is not going to cut their staffing by 25%. Why take a chance on ruining our city, and the services that are provided? I'm reluctant to vote "yes", but I don't want to take a chance by voting "no". A lot of lives could be affected by this issue.
Obviously, the CPD can do more
"A 2007 salary study by police compensation consultants http://www.PolicePay.net found that over a 30-year career, a Columbus police officer would average more money than officers in Ohio’s other major cities: $5,000 more than Toledo, $8,000 more than Cincinnati, $10,000 more than Dayton and roughly $17,000 more than Akron and Cleveland"
NBC4 good story here:Police and City Workers getting paid too much?I know they have unions, but they need to consider that people are far worse off then they are. Maybe if all the unemployed went on a shop lifting adventure, police will realize that they can at least make a 5% cut in pay.
One last note if we lose 300 officers, Columbus will be with the national average with 2 officers / 1000 residents.
Like I said before, I am reluctantly voting yes but I think the police and fire dept. can make salary cuts along with city employees.
Anyone on CU taken a 5% cut or more this year? I have.
Posted 2 years ago # -
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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JonMyers wrote >>
I have zero expertise with what it takes to respond to an emergency situation, but let me share something from yesterday and something I see happen a lot here.
We were standing on High street when the paramedics arrive to pick up a drunk who was a health hazard to himself at a bar. Behind the emergency van, a hook and ladder shows up with a team of firefighters. BTW - the man was not on fire. I couldn't help but to stand there and see cash burning. Is this response typical? I don't seem to recall a hook and ladder appearing every time an emergency squad is called in other cities. Seems wasteful.From the CFD FAQ page:
Engine companies in the City of Columbus not only fight fires, but are also fully trained and equipped paramedic units, known as Medic-Engines. Each firehouse has a "Medic-Engine" assigned. Many times a Medic-Engine is closer to an emergency scene and is dispatched along with a medic transport vehicle. In this case the Medic-Engine is called a "First Responder" since it is expected to arrive first on the scene and render emergency care as quickly as possible. After the Medic transport vehicle arrives the members of the engine company will assist those paramedics. With this technology and progressive management system, the citizens of Columbus are provided with both rapid response and quality care at a time when they are most in need.
It does seem odd at times, but I don't know. If Uncle Louie is on the floor with a heart attack it's going to be a good thing when 5-6 medics on 2 vehicles show up: 2 to start CPR, a third to get the paddles going, potentially a 4th for any IV lines and another to get all the basic info that can be of immediate help.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Rockmastermike
CORNspiracy HQ
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B_C_B wrote >>
Rockmastermike wrote >>
Mercurius wrote >>
I think they are referring to it being a 25% increase(e.g. going from 2% to 2.5%.)it's funny... people who make a point to state things in the most sensationalist way possible usually end up persuading me of exactly the opposite of what they had intended.
It's not really misleading. You will be paying 25% more in city income tax if this passes. 2% tax on $10,000 is 200 and a 2.5% tax on $10,000 is 250 which is 25% more than 200.
didn't say it was misleading, only that the writing style was sensationalist. I was looking at HOW the term "25%" is used in each sentence. "will increase by 25%". "Want to save 25%?" "SAVE YOUR 25%!" Nowhere in the email does it say what the actual rate is, because "2% to 2.5%" is not a big looking number.
It's obvious the author is attempting to be, yes, factual, but at the same time, using the old standard advertising trick of making something SEEM larger than it really is. It's obvious.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Rockmastermike
CORNspiracy HQ
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howatzer wrote >>
Have there been any projections in the decrease in city business revenue that the tax increase will cause, and is it a good idea to force this decrease during a recession?
Sorry for all the questions - I'm a bit slow and am trying to catch up.the PDF of the budget I pasted in a previous post has all the numbers. Its an interesting read.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Rockmastermike
CORNspiracy HQ
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CbusIslander wrote >>
"A 2007 salary study by police compensation consultants http://www.PolicePay.net found that over a 30-year career, a Columbus police officer would average more money than officers in Ohio’s other major cities: $5,000 more than Toledo, $8,000 more than Cincinnati, $10,000 more than Dayton and roughly $17,000 more than Akron and Cleveland"$17,000 over 30 years is about $600 per year more. Given that the starting salery is 39K... a 1% difference. Again... factual, but sensationalist.
The average pay in cleveland googles to 41K. I don't see an average for columbus, but starting at 39K it's unlikely the average that much different if any. Cost of living factors in too.
Posted 2 years ago #
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