Pablo
Crestview Addition
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Interesting interview in the Dispatch today with Hazel Morrow-Jones, professor of city & regional planning at OSU:
"Much as some of us romanticize old homes, a new house is a dream for someone who's had problems with an old one," Morrow-Jones said.
She has also found that homeowners on average prefer the car-centric suburban maze that urban planners despise over neighborhoods that emphasize walkability.
Analogue Kid
5th by West-Northwest
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No real surprise I guess. Unless our culture changes significantly from valuing "shiny and new" to "established and experienced" we'll continue to sprawl.
Rastapasta
Olde North
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It makes sense to me, look at all the renters who choose to live in places like Polaris, Easton, Olentangy and other places off random highway exits. In the last few years, especially as the economy has tanked, that I see more people interested in urban living.
manticore33
Delaware, OH
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Disclaimer: Please note, I am pro-urban, however, I've not found that it yet works for me. At this point in my life, a smaller community is better suited for my lifestyle and interests. Likewise, I do not need to leave my community for anything, but work. There are a plethora of local businesses to support by environmentally friendly transportation.
I love the concept of urban living and would love to make that transistion at some point. However, a few issues have halted my plans. Primarily, cost, I have a young family of four and need room. I was able to source a great starter home for $50k less (granted built in the 70's and devoid of charm) than Clintonville and it has roughly an additional 600 - 800 sq/ft of living space (my children have a dedicated play space). I am also a car nut, so I have a garage and plenty of parking and 'safe' street parking (IE my road is not very busy). The wife and I use the land around our house to plant a garden. All of these items or luxuries come at a hefty premium in the inner-city (I drool over the Neil Ave houses, but not the 300k+ costs!).
I am within 15 minutes of walking distance to downtown bars, restaurants, coffeehouses, shopping, and city parks. The city also rehabbed an abandoned train track into a walkway / bike path that goes from the one side of the city to the other. The city has four grocery stores (all of which are full service, one, Buehler's, is local Ohio owned and sells local Ohio products). We also have your normal discount retailers, book stores, galleries, and antique shops. There is, albeit not as big, a summer downtown farmer's market. Not bad for a city of 30k people.
Likewise, traffic is a none issue and I pretty much can get anywhere by car within 15 minutes, including work. It is roughly 30-35 minute drive to the Short North. I do have the benefit of being close to the country and two large state parks.
I write this as my experience being more of a suburbanite opposed to an urbanite. These types of costs, conveniences, and whatnot are a primary driver of why people, in my opinion, leave more of the inner city. Given that, the homes of UA, Grandview, and Bexely seem to have a larger overall lot size than that of German Village, Harrison West, and the Short North.
However, I do agree with redeveloping older neighborhoods. I am a huge lover of history and older homes (which my next home will be), but some people are not dedicated to making an older home 'work.' Likewise, I've been impressed with the look of the new/old home developments in Harrison West and think there are more opportunities for this type of development. However, please make it a bit more affordable!
Please, maybe, can I get an urban write-back of what I am missing being in my remote bedroom community? Likewise, I'd love to here how much people are able to stay within the some of the up and coming areas?
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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I won't get too far into it but there are options in the inner core, outside of Clintonville and Victorian Village, that provide the same amenities at a lower cost. To each their own.
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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manticore33, thanks for sharing all of that. ;) I consider myself to be pro-urban too, but I can't say that it's a lifestyle suitable for everyone. I think one of the things that makes Central Ohio great is that there are plenty of options for everyone.
Similar to you, cost was a major factor when my wife Anne & I decided it was time to buy a home. We had rented in German Village for awhile, and similar to Victorian Village, the cost associated with buying in these already-revitalized areas was too much for our budgets. Especially considering that we already had one child and planned on having more (number 2 arrives in less than 2 months!), which meant we needed some extra room to grow.
Instead, we looked at other neighborhoods located just east & west of Downtown that weren't quite as revamped yet, and priced much more affordably. We ended up finding a 2000 sqft 3br 1.5ba home in the King Lincoln District, located a mile east of High Street. It appealed to us because it had room for our family to grow, was much cheaper than anything comparible in German or Victorian Village (or other neighborhoods), had the same historic charm (built approx 1890), a lot of potential as a financial investment, and still had the proximity to all the amenities of Downtown. I wouldn't call myself a "car nut", but we do own a car that is a vital part of our lives, so the off-street parking option was crucial. I consider our street to be fairly safe (25 mph) even if it is a little busy at times. We have a nice sized back yard with a veggie garden. I agree that these luxuries would carry a hefty premium on Neil Avenue, but that doesn't rule out the entire inner city.
We too are within 15 minutes of walking distance to downtown bars, restaurants, coffeehouses, limited shopping (heh) and some of the best city parks in the region (Franklin Park Conservatory & Topiary Park). For groceries we typically drive the 1.5 miles to either the top-of-the-line Brewery District Kroger or the North Market for specialty items. Shopping is a bit easier with a quick bus ride or drive to the Short North, but we're also a quick 15-minute drive to Easton for other things. Additionally, we're a short walk to the Lincoln Theater, Ohio Theatre, Palace Theatre, the Columbus Museum of Art, The Nationally-Acclaimed Downtown Main Library, CCAD, Nationwide Arena, the Convention Center and more.
All in all, I really don't think it's as bad as a lot of people make downtown living out to be. Personally, I'd say the only thing missing is a stronger retail component.
Again, it certainly isn't a lifestyle meant for everyone. Our street (Hamilton) looks pretty good, but having boarded-up abandoned homes just a few blocks away is unfortunately enough to scare a lot of people away from even considering moving here with children.
That being said, I see absolutely nothing wrong with your setup in Delaware either. It sounds like you're positioned pretty well within a walkable portion of the city.
Columbusite
Minneapolis
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Well, gee transportation shapes development. What transportation infrastructure have we been building? Highways and arterials. And what development follows? Sprawl. And that's what we as a city have been offering residents for the past five decades. In much that time period the city also dis-invested in its urban neighborhoods leaving them to crumble. I'm surprised professor Morrow-Jones didn't include these very important facts in her research.
While we've got a handful of great urban hoods it is because residents put in a lot of work; our urban neighborhoods don't get the subsidies that sprawling suburbs still do, not to say that even if every urban neighborhood were healthy that some people wouldn't choose sprawl. The whole wanting an unnecessarily big house, though, is a cultural problem not at all specific to Columbus. Still if people want newer and bigger homes there are plenty of grass lots in the urban core. Maybe these will be the sites of a slew of new Double McMansions once people find commuting from the bedroom communities of Cleveland and Cincinnati to be too much.
MikeReed
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The transit issue is a big one- if we had better transit it would take a fraction of the time for an upcoming neighborhood to become a destination. If you've been to Chicago you know what I am talking about. You can get from downtown to Bucktown in no time and it has it's own flavor and unique things to do.
People ask, "What's the next Short North?" There isn't one... not anytime soon anyway. It took 20 years for the Short North to become the Short North- and it is right on High Street. Development there seems to have screeched to a halt due to the economy. More remote areas have no chance of speedy revitalization without better transit options than the bus. Sure, I could be wrong- but I would place a bet that in 10 years there will be very little difference in the "upcoming" neighborhoods surrounding Columbus without some kind of rail.
As for the suburbs, you aren't missing much in Columbus- especially if you are willing to trade off on "charm" for price. Our neighborhoods aren't like San Francisco or New York where everything is right there within walking distance for the most part. I suspect that even with all of the amenities within walking distance to you only a fraction of them are useful for day-in day-out life and to conduct your life you have to get in the car more often than not. Life is much, much easier in Columbus if you drive- even in the suburbs.
Arguably, one can get rid of the cars and save the difference on the house (what's 50K in terms of monthly cost tacked onto a loan?)- with what would have been car payments is instead going into the equity on a home worth 50K more once it is paid off. I have seen pretty compelling presentations on how a family can choose between a 2nd car and building substantial wealth (over, say, 20 years). But it is less reasonable to opt for that kind of investment in Columbus. Getting places without the comfort of a car is real work.
Core_Models
Columbus
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A really large portion of my friends over the last 5-10 years have done the move out of the urban area into the suburban for this very reason, "more room". The consensus across the board from these people a few years later is that they didn't actually need more room, they hate having this much house, and they wish they were back in German Village or the Short North.
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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jpizzow wrote >>
Don't even get me started on this one. Cavemen lived a more urban and sustainable lifestyle than we do today.
You know, I love to complain sometimes too... And you can't push for change without voicing the problems...
...but sometimes you have to stop and enjoy what you do have, or else you're going to be unhappy 100% of the time.
And as I said in my longer post above... what we currently have is not as bad (or as difficult) as many people make urban living in Columbus out to be.
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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MikeReed wrote >>
The transit issue is a big one- if we had better transit it would take a fraction of the time for an upcoming neighborhood to become a destination.
MikeReed wrote >>
Sure, I could be wrong- but I would place a bet that in 10 years there will be very little difference in the "upcoming" neighborhoods surrounding Columbus without some kind of rail.
I'll disagree with you here, although it should probably be noted that how you measure this difference is fairly subjective. I think it's also sometimes difficult to step back measure a decade's progress from a birds-eye-view when you're in an area where you're watching it happen ever so slowly from the ground level during those 3650 days.
Anyway, the reason I'd disagree is because we've already seen neighborhoods change significantly in 10 years without rail transit being present. Quite a few urban neighborhoods currently look much different than they did 10 years ago. There are catalysts other than rail that will continue to push other areas forward.
But yeah, like you said... rail will make it all go faster. ;)
TaraK
probably at the coffee shop
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Core_Models wrote >>
A really large portion of my friends over the last 5-10 years have done the move out of the urban area into the suburban for this very reason, "more room". The consensus across the board from these people a few years later is that they didn't actually need more room, they hate having this much house, and they wish they were back in German Village or the Short North.
Exactly. I think people see others homes that have rooms for all kinds of functions and think they want it too without considering all the logistics, such as substantially higher bills. Having lived in places small and large, I realized that you can only be in one room at a time. Also, the more space you have the more crap you fill compelled to buy to fill it.
Pablo
Crestview Addition
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Great comments! The professor suggests that infill housing is a good way to provide new house options but this can get pricey. There's an economy of scale that lowers the price of homes in the suburbs that's rarely avaliable in the city. Transit is great but it doesn't slow down sprawl in cities like Chicago, NYC or Toronto. For me, my south Clintonville house is the right size for my family. As much as I don't like it, my brother feels his 3200sf home in the suburbs is the right size for his family.
@manticore33 - sounds like urban living to me albeit in a smaller urban area!
alexs
Limestone bluffs of the Scioto
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I help mind pets in some houses in Muirfield and Tartan Fields, and some of those places are big just for the sake of being big. You could fit a comfy cabin inside the "great room" of one of these places. I look way up at the ceilings and think that if Russians owned it, there would be a loft with a family living up there.
JimSweeney
E. Fton
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A major incentive to go to the burbs is that the current cost to supply utilities and other infrastructure is borne by the entire city not just by those who are using them. If i live next to the sewage plant (tough spot) i still need to pay, through taxes and utility fees, the cost of sending and maintaining a massive trunk up to Delaware County so that someone else can get the same service i get. They ought to pay more to not smell the plant (and i pay less).
Just as many say we shouldn't use public money for light rail because they won't use it, I say we shouldn't use it for roads either because i'll never drive route 224 between Fostoria and Willard. I say let every road be a toll road! User fees to level the playing field!
JonMyers
HCMC ✈
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One of the biggest differences between suburban and urban living to me is personal, social and business opportunity costs. Living in a suburb can limit your opportunities and ultimately the daily grind of familiarity can negatively affect the psyche. I believe one reason is that most suburban designs by their very nature discourage interaction with unfamiliar persons and experiences. That design is what fuels that soulless mediocre feeling for me.
Much of it boils down to aesthetic, cultural and lifestyle choices, IMO.
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I feel like I have to say something about rail transportation.
On transportation, I'm actually going to break with the group on transportation. To me, transportation (I'm mainly talking about street cars and city rail) is one of the most overrated components of a Columbus urban strategy. A ton of time and productivity is wasted on this topic when that productivity could be directed at expanding on creating neighborhoods that are worth visiting in the first place.
There aren't many neighborhoods in Columbus that I care to go to that are that hard to efficiently visit via existing means of transportation. I don't own a car (I have access to my GF's car), have a scooter, a bike, two-feet, bus fare and cab money. Most neighborhoods I can get to in 15 minutes or less. Easily. I can call a cab and be at the airport easily in 10 - 15 minutes.
I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see rail, but having lived in cities with comprehensive rail and transportation systems the focus is ALWAYS on the most efficient means of moving from one neighborhood and area to the other. Transportation should always be about moving people first and foremost.
When I lived in New York, it was often just as easy to walk. Sometimes the train was easier. Sometimes the cross-town bus made sense and sometimes I would just cab it.
I still feel like we're in the novelty stage rather than the efficiency stage.
It's as if brains went out to lunch on trains with regards to making great neighborhoods we want to visit in the first place. Anyhow...
This all of course circles back to a bigger question. That question is - the vision for urban Columbus where transportation would live as a piece of that vision. What I've seen from Columbus leadership on the bigger vision is a mess. There is no vision. There is a collection of disjointed urban tactics, which we can all appreciate, but in the end I don't see them falling in line with a bigger picture.
If there were a unified, disciplined and focused vision for urban Columbus that started with the leadership you would not be seeing the bumbling and buffoonery we're seeing on a number of downtown issues.
As an urban development priority, the number one challenge is not transportation, but having a unified vision where transportation would fall in line with that vision.
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