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Started 10 months ago by News
Latest reply from Walker

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jpizzow
580 N. Park St.
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Walker said:
Probably. Thus the big box cycle continues.

Seeing as though grocery stores constitute the majority of trips by residents, it only seems logical that they are the anchors and centerpiece of walkable neighborhoods. Can you imagine being an agent and using the selling point of saying that you can walk two blocks or less to get groceries. That is and always should be, whenever possible, one of the main conveniences of urban, semi-urban living. Every existing grocer should be a potential redevelopment site. All this will do is close up one, maybe two grocers, both of which have a large amount of pedestrian customers, and encourage more driving. I'm just wandering if developers and planners are ever going to get it. They seem to get it is most other, more progressive cities (when it comes to neighborhood building), but not here. They get on their knees and bow down to the personal vehicle. And so the cycle continues and our neighborhoods lose character and become more disjointed. I know their are a lot of economics involved in the equation but their should be some "rules". In my opinion, quality of life trumps economics.

Posted 3 months ago #
rus

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Walker said:
I've not noticed goods being any cheaper between the tiny German Village Giant Eagle and the newer 127,000 square foot Kingsdale Marketplace store. I think the "economies of scale" equation probably works as the company has more stores overall and the company itself is larger, but I don't think that translates much to individual store sizes. Perhaps Giant Eagle turns a higher profit with a larger store... but I don't think we're going to see cheaper goods in a larger version of one of their stores.

If cheaper goods is your goal, how does having lots of little stores get you there? If anything, the lower volumes would indicate a higher per unit cost and, thus, higher consumer prices.

We've already seen that consumers will chose a lower cost item over a higher cost one of equal value ( see walmart, target, etc. ).

People may say they want walkable neighborhoods and local shopping, but haven't been paying for it. Instead, they drive to a big box or a strip mall. Heck, Market District is a good example: massive size and variety with common items and specialty items side by side.

Seems like people prefer that rather than figuring out which little shop is carrying which thing they want or making do with what they find.

Posted 3 months ago #
mrpoppinzs
Arena District
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Never really minded driving to the grocery store. I think having a small walkable convenience type store to get some snacks, beer, etc is important but I would rather load up the car and do the main shopping for the week all at once than walk there 5 times. The specialty stores like Hills are nice, but they are not one stop shops, imho, as I would not pay $5 for cornflakes. Obviously, others may shop differently.

Posted 3 months ago #
columbusmike

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rus said:
If cheaper goods is your goal, how does having lots of little stores get you there? If anything, the lower volumes would indicate a higher per unit cost and, thus, higher consumer prices.

A smaller store often means fewer choices, not necessarily higher prices. If you go to a Kroger or Giant Eagle, they stock about 20 varieties of ruffled potato chips, where as a small store might only stock 3 varieties of potato chips.

We've already seen that consumers will chose a lower cost item over a higher cost one of equal value ( see walmart, target, etc. ).

People may say they want walkable neighborhoods and local shopping, but haven't been paying for it. Instead, they drive to a big box or a strip mall.

That's mostly because a true, full-blown walkable neighborhood has not existed in the United States in 70 years, minus only a handful of places around the country. We might consider German Village or Victorian Village walkable...and indeed it is very walkable...but it's nothing like how our cities were constructed before WWII.

Hence, if you have to hop in your car anyways, why not drive to the cheapest prices? The WalMarts and Targets have catered very well to this ... have made it easy for the automobile and made shopping an exciting adventure (although it's nothing like the adventure of big store shopping from 30-40 years ago).

Posted 3 months ago #
rus

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columbusmike said:
A smaller store often means fewer choices, not necessarily higher prices. If you go to a Kroger or Giant Eagle, they stock about 20 varieties of ruffled potato chips, where as a small store might only stock 3 varieties of potato chips.

Only true if the smaller stores can purchase goods from distributors at the same prices as larger stores. In other words, a smaller store that's part of a large chain may be cost competitive with those larger stores but a small independent likely wouldn't be. Instead, they'd focus on different goods.

Posted 3 months ago #
columbusmike

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rus said:
Only true if the smaller stores can purchase goods from distributors at the same prices as larger stores. In other words, a smaller store that's part of a large chain may be cost competitive with those larger stores but a small independent likely wouldn't be. Instead, they'd focus on different goods.

I've done some price checking at Huffman's Market (small, independent grocery store in UA) compared to Giant Eagle/Kroger. It wasn't exactly scientific, but the prices were comparable. Obviously, deals on different items at different times made it hard to tell exactly, but there wasn't anything that made me go "yowzers"!

I'm happy that there are big grocery stores in town....I think it's great to have a place where you can get a wide variety of items for parties, etc. I just don't know if it's a great idea to abandon/prohibit more neighborhood-scaled grocery stores that can serve people 90% of the year without the need of a car/lots of driving.

Posted 3 months ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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rus said:
If cheaper goods is your goal, how does having lots of little stores get you there? If anything, the lower volumes would indicate a higher per unit cost and, thus, higher consumer prices.

How are you defining "little" stores? I'm saying that the cost of goods for the consumer doesn't vary between a 30,000 sqft Giant Eagle and a 100,000 sqft Giant Eagle. So to that end, it would be better for a community to have three smaller stores rather than one big one.

rus said:
We've already seen that consumers will chose a lower cost item over a higher cost one of equal value ( see walmart, target, etc. ).

Generally speaking, yes. But niche markets don't always hold fast to the national trends. I'd argue that many Grandview and Victorian Village shoppers are more inclined to pay more for quality and convenience over big box pricing.

Even the big boxes understand that urban neighborhoods are different market than what their suburban stores have traditionally provided. And they're looking to adapt:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43414111/ns/business-retail/t/wal-mart-other-big-boxes-try-out-smaller-boxes/

rus said:
People may say they want walkable neighborhoods and local shopping, but haven't been paying for it. Instead, they drive to a big box or a strip mall.

Because they don't have much in the way of a choice. And if someone here on CU wants to try to affect change in what should expected of a retail developer, you're usually the first person to counter argue that the developer should be allowed to do whatever they want and customers should just deal with it.

rus said:
Seems like people prefer that rather than figuring out which little shop is carrying which thing they want or making do with what they find.

It seems like people here are saying the exact opposite of that, for what it's worth. Not that you're interested in listening to something that goes against your own thoughts on a topic. :P

Anyway, you shouldn't worry too much about this. No one is going to pry the big box stores away from you. If anything, this area is getting a bigger Giant Eagle.

Posted 3 months ago #
rus

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columbusmike said:
I just don't know if it's a great idea to abandon/prohibit more neighborhood-scaled grocery stores that can serve people 90% of the year without the need of a car/lots of driving.

As I read that, it strikes me that abandon and prohibit are vastly different ideas. If people don't choose to shop at a certain store they're abandoning it... very different thing from government stepping in to remove it.

If people want a smaller grocery store they can walk to, pay for it by shopping there. Figure that's why Rife's is still in business. Helps that Rife's offers some products you don't see in other places as well, of course.

Posted 3 months ago #
rus

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Walker said:
How are you defining "little" stores? I'm saying that the cost of goods for the consumer doesn't vary between a 30,000 sqft Giant Eagle and a 100,000 sqft Giant Eagle. So to that end, it would be better for a community to have three smaller stores rather than one big one.

If you mean three competing smaller stores, then the competition might be useful sure.

Walker said:
Generally speaking, yes. But niche markets don't always hold fast to the national trends. I'd argue that many Grandview and Victorian Village shoppers are more inclined to pay more for quality and convenience over big box pricing.

Even the big boxes understand that urban neighborhoods are different market than what their suburban stores have traditionally provided. And they're looking to adapt:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43414111/ns/business-retail/t/wal-mart-other-big-boxes-try-out-smaller-boxes/

Possible, I suppose. I really hate agreeing with people here, but I live in the area and tend to buy a good bit of stuff locally.

Sounds like I should do something else.

Walker said:

It seems like people here are saying the exact opposite of that, for what it's worth. Not that you're interested in listening to something that goes against your own thoughts on a topic. :P

Oh right, because limited variety / selection is exactly more choice. :P

Posted 3 months ago #
kit444
Elsewhere
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When I lived in Chicago, going grocery shopping was the one time I wished I had a car. Walking to the grocery store sounds romantic, but walking back loaded with groceries is a pain in the ass.

Posted 3 months ago #
mrpoppinzs
Arena District
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^ +1 to that...

Posted 3 months ago #
rus

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kit444 said:
When I lived in Chicago, going grocery shopping was the one time I wished I had a car. Walking to the grocery store sounds romantic, but walking back loaded with groceries is a pain in the ass.

Having schlepped groceries on a subway train... yeah.

Posted 3 months ago #
myliftkk
Columbus, OH
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Doesn't carryout solve this problem?

Posted 3 months ago #
columbusmike

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rus said:
If people want a smaller grocery store they can walk to, pay for it by shopping there. Figure that's why Rife's is still in business. Helps that Rife's offers some products you don't see in other places as well, of course.

I think you're assuming people recognize that their consumer choices have results ;)

Posted 3 months ago #
rus

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columbusmike said:
I think you're assuming people recognize that their consumer choices have results ;)

HA! Or even that people have to pay, one way or another, for what they want. ;)

Posted 3 months ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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rus said:
If people want a smaller grocery store they can walk to, pay for it by shopping there.

In many areas, this option doesn't exist, so that idea of supporting something with your wallet is not an option. You have to do it vocally first, which is exactly what is going on right here in this very thread.

Posted 3 months ago #
rus

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Walker said:
In many areas, this option doesn't exist, so that idea of supporting something with your wallet is not an option. You have to do it vocally first, which is exactly what is going on right here in this very thread.

Putting aside the idea that complaining on a internet forum is somehow effective and that if people have never had such a thing how can they possibly know it's a good idea...

Figure if GE does move to the yard and shutters one or both currently walkable locations then people who'd prefer a walkable location could shop somewhere else and inform GE of their choice along with their reasoning.

Perhaps additionally point out the existing locations to competitors ( kroger, trader joes, whole foods, what have you ) as well.

Figure if the move hurts GE's bottom line they'll get the message. Also, if a competitor moves in successfully that provides a case study which proves the concept to the industry.

Nothing like greed to motivate people.

Provided, of course, there's enough people who want to spend money in walkable grocery stores.

Posted 3 months ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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rus said:
Putting aside the idea that complaining on a internet forum is somehow effective and that if people have never had such a thing how can they possibly know it's a good idea...

1. Discussions on this site have often had real-world impacts in this city. Not saying that's always the case... but if you don't think information here is read by decision makers, then you're wrong.

2. You're really going to make it a requirement for people to have whatever you personally deem as an appropriate amount of experience with something in order to be allowed to state a preference for something? I guess that also means that no one is allowed to be in favor of a Giant Eagle on Third Avenue because they've never had one there. How could they possibly know if it's a good idea?

rus said:
Figure if GE does move to the yard and shutters one or both currently walkable locations then people who'd prefer a walkable location could shop somewhere else and inform GE of their choice along with their reasoning.

Perhaps additionally point out the existing locations to competitors ( kroger, trader joes, whole foods, what have you ) as well.

Figure if the move hurts GE's bottom line they'll get the message. Also, if a competitor moves in successfully that provides a case study which proves the concept to the industry.

Nothing like greed to motivate people.

Provided, of course, there's enough people who want to spend money in walkable grocery stores.

I agree that people can shop elsewhere and vote with their wallets, even if they aren't exactly what you might individually want (driving to Trader Joe's instead of having one closer to home). But that's not quite the same as what you said earlier with "If people want a smaller grocery store they can walk to, pay for it by shopping there". That's still not always an option.

Posted 3 months ago #
CalebR
Lincoln Village
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I say we complain to GE and if they do build one.. boycott it :P

Posted 3 months ago #
hajames66
Arena District
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ricospaz said:
I can walk or ride a bike to the current Giant Eagle on 5th in GV. I'd rather have a Trader Joes or something else in that location and have them create the Super GE down the road. parking sucks at the 5th Ave GE and it's a small store, doesn't have everything the other big box GEs have.

Trader Joes always seems crowded, at least the one in Dublin. While we're at it, put a City Barbecue in the old Hoggys location on 5th.

+1

Posted 3 months ago #